The broken window

[DJA]

It might be a mistake to assume the broken pane that was looked through, was the same broken pane that was reached through, as more than one pane was broken.

Reckon Phillips nailed it at the Inquest.

[DJA]

random handbill AND ALSO a printed card?

Just to confuse things.....sometimes referred to as a carte....being either or a compromise between the two.

Small handbill or flyer.

[Wickerman]

I'm looking at the photo of Mary's room in Millers Court in the JTR A-Z now, the photo taken showing the relevant distance between door and smaller window with furthest pane. Even if it was the nearest pane that was broken that's an extraordinary length for a human arm to stretch to the door, (even if all the glass in the pane had gone which it hadn't.) You'd need simian length limbs to reach through and unlock anything. The door must have been left on the latch.

It might be a mistake to assume the broken pane that was looked through, was the same broken pane that was reached through, as more than one pane was broken.

[DJA]

A member of the armed forces would not be advertising services on a handbill, that's all I know.

Might have moonlighted as a bouncer or private investigator on weekends.
Police and servicemen are often found as the former.
Took a lot to stamp it out in Victoria. Still happens. Good pay,no tax.

Building tunnels and bridges will result in those broad shoulders.

Honestly,how many people with really broad shoulders do you know and how did they get them?

Rowers and weight lifters top my list.
A railway builder in NQ is right up there. One.
Some swimmers.
Some builders/brickies.

Cheesemongers....zilch.

Maybe the cheesemonger rowed the Thames in his spare time

All the Best!

[RockySullivan]

It's not quite clear who or what the handbill refers to. However, re Howard's conversation it's probably the grocer with a descendant. A member of the armed forces would not be advertising services on a handbill, that's all I know.

The older Bowyer, (Indian Harry) had been in the Indian Army hadn't he, for many years. Does this mean he was a miner before that? Surely someone has traced his place of birth before now, whether Wales or elsewhere?

Hi Rosella, thanks ,

Are we sure the handbill is connected to Frank Cater/Carter?
CB says this :
"Printed handbill and according to a press report- a printed card for 'Frank Carter,305,Bethnal Green Road"

Is there any clear distinction that the handbill is somehow connected to the printed card or did she just have a random handbill AND ALSO a printed card?

[Robert St Devil]

And nowhere does it say how she opened the door for blotchy skin man?? Did she reach in thru the window to unlock it?

Does anyone else think its random that Jack Mack sends Tom Boy to collect on weeks worth of back rent on the very same morning that she is murdered? or was knocking on her door to collect some rent (like a deputy) part of his daily routine?? The story never indicates what type of collection arrangement Mack has with Barnett during October. Four (or six) weeks without payment seems like a long time for a PAYbytheWEEK slumlord like Mack.]

[Rosella]

It's not quite clear who or what the handbill refers to. However, re Howard's conversation it's probably the grocer with a descendant. A member of the armed forces would not be advertising services on a handbill, that's all I know.

The older Bowyer, (Indian Harry) had been in the Indian Army hadn't he, for many years. Does this mean he was a miner before that? Surely someone has traced his place of birth before now, whether Wales or elsewhere?

[Bridewell]

Returning to the window and the claim that MJK reached through the window to open the door:-

You could undo a latch or bolt by reaching through the window but (before the invention of the Yale type lock) you would still need a key to undo a lock surely? Does that mean that MJK used to secure the door by a latch or bolt only as the lock was effectively unuseable? If so, who locked the door when the key was missing - or was it only ever latched/bolted? Perhaps the key was never missing at all and found in the keyhole on the inside - in which case there might be a need to invent a lost key to cover the embarrassment of using a pick-axe unnecessarily.

Sorry. That's a bit of a ramble but it's late evening and that's the way my mind runs.

[Bridewell]

Call it a hunch but I have been hung up on one of the professions within the mining industry being a RIPPER.

Not just within the mining industry. A ripper was someone who sold freshwater fish at the markets, also someone who made and sold baskets:-

http://www.victorianoccupations.com/occupations-r.php

Joseph Barnett would have known a few rippers.

[Bridewell]

I suspect McCarthy is Kelly's pimp

He wouldn't like the term but he was renting some, if not all, of his rooms to low class prostitutes. He would have to be singularly stupid not to know how they earned their living - and they paid him rent (eventually). Therefore he was living, at least in part, on immoral earnings.

[Bridewell]

Hello Simon,

Has been found?..HAS BEEN..as in after they knocked the door to kingdom come and back..boarded it up... and hey presto, someone found the key...

You cant write comedy pathos like this, you really cant.


Phil

Does it have to be "comedy pathos"? We know that MJK had supposedly lost her key. We also know that the police searched the room (presumably thoroughly). The most likely explanation, to my mind, is that the key was found during that search.

[Robert St Devil]

. Here is the thread on bowyer in the court at 3 am. His father's profession is listed as "cutter". Can anyone explain what that means to me? http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=12414&page=2

I knew it! Call it a hunch but i have been hung up on one of the professions within the mining industry being a RIPPER. I decided to see if CUTTER is a listed profession, and it is. I am interested in the RISCA mine explosion of 80, and if it had any relation to MJK. I visited the following link: www.cmhrc.co.uk/cms/document/1880_81.pdf. AND scrolled to the Risca event. A list of the men killed in the explosion is broken down by profession. Amongst the professions: TOP RIPPERS and BOTTOM CUTTERS. So this may imply that Bowyer was Welsh.

[RockySullivan]

I've just rechecked my info. Over at the JTRF Howard and Monty had a conversation some time ago about Frank Cater being misprinted in Monty's book as Frank Carter, a mistake I repeated in my post. It was apparently a typo which occurred in the first edition.

The conversation, which was about the flyer found in Kate's possession after her death, continued in another thread there.

I hope Howard won't mind me paraphrasing what he said, but he wrote that a descendant of Cater's, who was apparently a grocer, Howard said, ( I've read elsewhere a cheesemonger) had contacted him in pursuit of more info on his grocer ancestor whose name had appeared on the flyer found with Eddowes. Tom Wescott in the same conversation said he was at one time going to write an article about Frank, who apparently lived with his brother.

Hi Rosella...so his name is Cater and he was a grocer or cheesemonger? The Royal Engineers Carter is the wrong person?

[Rosella]

I've just rechecked my info. Over at the JTRF Howard and Monty had a conversation some time ago about Frank Cater being misprinted in Monty's book as Frank Carter, a mistake I repeated in my post. It was apparently a typo which occurred in the first edition.

The conversation, which was about the flyer found in Kate's possession after her death, continued in another thread there.

I hope Howard won't mind me paraphrasing what he said, but he wrote that a descendant of Cater's, who was apparently a grocer, Howard said, ( I've read elsewhere a cheesemonger) had contacted him in pursuit of more info on his grocer ancestor whose name had appeared on the flyer found with Eddowes. Tom Wescott in the same conversation said he was at one time going to write an article about Frank, who apparently lived with his brother.

[packers stem]

Thanks Rosella. I'm not understanding why Kate would have his card? Was he John and if so why would he give her his card? Was it a business card and were they used in 1888? Or was it a type of personal identification card and in that case was it stolen from Frank Carter? Was it common for prostitutes to pickpocket their clients? Any insight into why Kate would be in possession of this card would be appreciated.

About Bowyer, let's not forget he was in miller's court at 3 am and according to this post copied from a jar post by debra he claimed to see a man:

"The Echo Wed. Nov. 14 1888

...Bowyer, the young man in Mr. McCarthy's employ was out at different times up Miller's-court on the Thursday night for the purpose of getting water from a tap there-the only available supply.Indeed, Bowyer vistited that spot as late-or, rather, as early-as three o'clock on the morning of the murder. This early visit to the water-tap is by no means an unfrequent thing, as Mr. Mccarthy's shop, which supplies the wants of a very poor and wretched locality, whose denziens are out at all hours, late and early, does not at times close until three o'clock in the morning,while occassionally it is open all night. Early on Friday morning Bowyer saw a man, whose description tallies with that of the supposed murderer. Bowyer has, he says, described this man to Inspector Abberline and Inspector Reid. Bowyer, who is known as "Indian Harry" has travelled a great deal, and formerly lived in India. He said to an Echo reporter this morning. "The murderer couldn't have come to a worse place (for escaping) than this court. There is only this narrow entrance, and If I had known he was there when I went to the water tap at three o'clock, I reckon he wouldn't have got off."

So Bowyer was the last known person in Miller's court (?) and the first person to find Kelly butchered. I don't think Bowyer has been explored enough as a suspect from what I can tell. Here is the thread on bowyer in the court at 3 am. His father's profession is listed as "cutter". Can anyone explain what that means to me? http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=12414&page=2

Hi Rocky
We all know the description of Bowyers man..
Is this another case of a description being distanced from the crime? In this case by about 40 hours.
Could be because Bowyers description for once does not suggest a jew or a sailor