The broken window

[Phil Carter]

....being a gynaecologist is just one possible reason that could have brought Dr Gabe to Miller's Court that day. It is not the only one.

And we eagerly await the unmitigated brilliance of your unravelling conjecture as to exactly what all the other possible reasons could have been.

Unless of course you happen to have found the real reason in some obscure file in an archive somewhere of course?
Perhaps Dr. Gabe was one involved somehow in that so called massive file on Tumblety too in years past?
Now that would be good..would tie up that little problem and link Tumblety to Millers Court with gusto. ☺


Phil

[David Orsam]

You stick with your gynaecologist and I'll stick with the child.

I suppose we have made an advance of sorts considering you were categorically telling the members of this forum earlier in the thread that Dr Gabe was not a gynaecologist.

But his being a gynaecologist is just one possible reason that could have brought Dr Gabe to Miller's Court that day. It is not the only one.

[David Orsam]

And a fat lot of good Dr Dukes obstetric talents did. He was long gone from Millers Court by the time the door to Room 13 was opened.

I don't know why you say this Simon. It doesn't match the contemporary reports. For example:

'Dr. Phillips, on his arrival, carefully examined the body of the dead woman, and later on again made a second examination in company with Dr. Bond from Westminster, Dr. Gordon Brown from the City, Dr Duke from Spitalfields and Dr. Phillips' assistant.'

Times, 10 November 1888

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

And a fat lot of good Dr Dukes obstetric talents did. He was long gone from Millers Court by the time the door to Room 13 was opened.

You stick with your gynaecologist and I'll stick with the child.

Regards,

Simon

[David Orsam]

Dr. Gabe's appearance at the crime scene was because of the child.

We shall have to agree to disagree.

Whether we agree to disagree or not, it won't change the fact that there was no child at the crime scene.

[David Orsam]

Hi David,

Why would the doctors at Millers Court have required "superior gynaecological" expertise when Dr Phillips was an MBBS, MRCS Eng, Lic. Midwif., LSA., and Dr. Bond was an MRCS, MBBS and FRCS.?

The thing is Simon, all you do is shoot yourself in the foot. If their qualifications were so all encompassing then what was Dr Dukes doing there?

Dukes, incidentally, was a Fellow of the London Obstetrical Society which may or may not be relevant.

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

Why would the doctors at Millers Court have required "superior gynaecological" expertise when Dr Phillips was an MBBS, MRCS Eng, Lic. Midwif., LSA., and Dr. Bond was an MRCS, MBBS and FRCS.?

Dr. Gabe's appearance at the crime scene was because of the child.

We shall have to agree to disagree.

Regards,

Simon

[David Orsam]

David, I'm just wondering whether 'gynaecologist' was a bit blunt for some people in the early days, who may have preferred a circumlocution. When Protheroe Smith dies in 1889, "The Cornishman" calls him 'the well-known gynaecologist' while 'The Pall Mall Gazette' and others call him 'the well-known specialist in diseases of women.'

Posterity calls him a gynaecologist :

Hi Robert,

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, one does not find in the directories for the 1880s a group of doctors called 'gynaecologists'. I'm sure the Fellows of the BGS were all regarded as doctors or surgeons with gynaecological knowledge or expertise. But, as we have seen, Dr Meddowes referred to gathering of the founding Fellows as 'we gynaecologists' in 1885 so there's nothing unhistorical about the use of the term.

When I say that Dr Gabe was a gynaecologist I mean no more than he obviously had some form of gynaecological expertise and that, as I said in response to Hunter earlier in this thread (#440): 'As a fellow of the British Gynaecological Society he obviously was a gynaecologist as we would understand the term.'

In other words, it doesn't matter what the word or expression being used was in 1888, because, as we would use the term today, Dr Gabe was a gynaecologist. I don't believe my disagreement with Simon Wood is about semantics. His argument is that Gabe would not have been called to Miller's Court in November 1888 because of his superior gynaecological knowledge (because he is evidently saying that he didn't have any superior gynaecological knowledge). Whereas I'm saying that, being a member of the BGS, the fact that he had superior gynaecological knowledge is a perfectly possible explanation for his appearance at the crime scene.

We don't need to worry about terms but it is nevertheless misleading in the extreme for Simon say that Gabe was not a gynaecologist without accepting that he was a gynaecological specialist.

[Phil Carter]

David, I'm just wondering whether 'gynaecologist' was a bit blunt for some people in the early days, who may have preferred a circumlocution. When Protheroe Smith dies in 1889, "The Cornishman" calls him 'the well-known gynaecologist' while 'The Pall Mall Gazette' and others call him 'the well-known specialist in diseases of women.'

Posterity calls him a gynaecologist :


http://archives.wellcome.ac.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqDb= Catalog&dsqCmd=show.tcl&dsqSearch=(RefNo=='MS7655% 2F82')

Hello Robert,

Knowing of your expertise in the area of research in archives relating to names and professions, from many areas, I would suggest this to be bang on. Posterity may well have a lot of influence in the branding or naming of a profession.
Thanks for your input. ☺



Phil

[Robert]

David, I'm just wondering whether 'gynaecologist' was a bit blunt for some people in the early days, who may have preferred a circumlocution. When Protheroe Smith dies in 1889, "The Cornishman" calls him 'the well-known gynaecologist' while 'The Pall Mall Gazette' and others call him 'the well-known specialist in diseases of women.'

Posterity calls him a gynaecologist :


http://archives.wellcome.ac.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqDb= Catalog&dsqCmd=show.tcl&dsqSearch=(RefNo=='MS7655% 2F82')

[David Orsam]

Lawson Tait, of Birmingham, was the second president of the British Gynaecological Society, elected in 1886. The Yorkshire Herald of 6 February 1892 described him as 'the well-known gynaecologist'.

I'm thinking, therefore, that he must have been a gynaecologist but perhaps Simon Wood would disagree for in the 1891 census he described himself as a 'Consulting Surgeon'.

In fact, according to the Simon Wood test he definitely wasn't a gynaecologist for if we consult Kelly's Directory of Birmingham for 1892 we find the entry:

'Tait, Latham F.R.C.S. 7 Crescent'

No mention of this 'well-known gynaecologist' being a gynaecologist there at all! (F.R.C.S. meaning Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons).

[David Orsam]

Some of the volumes of the British Gynaecological Journal are online at the internet archive. I searched the first two volumes. Gabe is listed as a Fellow, but appears not to have contributed any articles or talks.

Thanks Robert, I wasn't aware of those volumes being online.

Looking at volume 1, I see that Dr Meddowes, the first president of the society, said to the attending Fellows at the inaugural meeting held on 11 March 1885:

'No wonder then that we gynaecologists have felt the need of another society, and we may well congratulate ourselves that now we shall have no less then eighteen meetings a year of one and a half hour each, giving us in all twenty-seven hours of the discussion of subjects exclusively gynaecological…I maintain it is impossible now for such a society as the Obstetrical adequately to represent the increasing importance of this subject, or to devote to its study that time, care and attention which we gynaecologists think it deserves.'

Very careless of him to use the expression 'we gynaecologists' bearing in mind that, as Simon tells us, being a founding fellow of the British Gynaecological Society did not make a doctor a gynaecologist.

[David Orsam]

the body in 13 millers court was clearly not in need of a gynaecologist

On that basis, packers, the body was clearly not in need of a doctor either, but a number of them turned up anyway.

[Jon Guy]

. I corrected my error, the body in 13 millers court was clearly not in need of a gynaecologist

But it was !!
The Doctors had to put the body back together again, with the knowledge that reproductive organs had previously been take away.

[Robert]

Some of the volumes of the British Gynaecological Journal are online at the internet archive. I searched the first two volumes. Gabe is listed as a Fellow, but appears not to have contributed any articles or talks.