How easy was it to disappear?

[John G]

Cencei,
In reality I don't know if Chapman was one of JTR's. In the novel I stay with the idea that she is. Jon thanks for the links. I'm a little more comfortable with the way I worked it out in the novel.

I think you're on safe ground with Chapman. I'd be genuinely amazed if there was a single poster on this site who would argue that Nichols' and Chapman weren't killed by the same person. They even have nearly identical parallel throat cuts!

[John G]

Errata and GUT;
I'm talking about getting away from the crime scene notably the International Workingmen's Educational Club. To my mind, if Jack was ever going to be caught that would have been the place. As we all know that didn't happen. In the novel I have him hiding in the shadows until Deimschutz goes into the club to get help. Is this plausible given the area and the rapidity of the Eddowes murder following?

Yes, that's very plausible. It should be remembered that the Yard was cloaked in pitch black darkness. Thus, Joseph Lave went out for a smoke around 12:35, and when he returned around 5 minutes later he couldn't even see the door to get back in. And when Diemshutz originally looked down on the body he thought it was a heap of dirt. He then prodded the body with his whip, but it didn't move. He struck a match to get a closer look at the obstruction and realized it was the body of a women, who he initially thought- even under the light of a match at the front of the Yard- was his own wife!

It should also be noted that the instinct of many of the locals appears to have been against getting involved. When Diemshutz, Eagle and Kozebrodsky, upon discovery of the body, ran off down the street, in opposite directions, shouting "police" and "murder" they attracted the attention of just one member of the public: Edward Spooner. And at the inquest, the coroner asked Dr Phillips if the victim [Stride] cried out. He replied, "She was in a yard, and in a locality where she may cry out very loudly and no notice taken of her."

Stride's murder was also very audacious: The victim seems to have been taken completely by surprise, and the killer successfully cut her carotid artery, whilst avoiding arterial spray. And nobody heard or saw anything, even Mrs Diemshutz who was sat in the ground floor kitchen with the window open. She told the press: "I am positive I did not hear any screams of sound of any kind. Even the singing on the floor above would not have prevented me from hearing had there been any. In the yard itself all was as silent as the grave."

[YankeeSergeant]

In a way, I think he was hiding in plain sight. I think he would have been someone that no one would have given a second glance to. So, yes I could see him strolling Commercial Street, but it is becoming clear to me that Whitechapel was as one observer termed it a rabbit warren. Thanks everybody!

[YankeeSergeant]

Cencei,
In reality I don't know if Chapman was one of JTR's. In the novel I stay with the idea that she is. Jon thanks for the links. I'm a little more comfortable with the way I worked it out in the novel.

[YankeeSergeant]

Disappearing

Errata and GUT;
I'm talking about getting away from the crime scene notably the International Workingmen's Educational Club. To my mind, if Jack was ever going to be caught that would have been the place. As we all know that didn't happen. In the novel I have him hiding in the shadows until Deimschutz goes into the club to get help. Is this plausible given the area and the rapidity of the Eddowes murder following?

[Batman]

I think one can rule out suspects with blood on them. JtR was very forensically aware, especially of blood. I doubt he got a drop on him.

Yes the Moore experiment meant what we see on the maps is not fully accurate at all. People must have been changing the landscape due to overcrowding with passages through places like yards probably previously closed off let open due to volume of movement. Accessways such as Chapman's back yard appear a dead end but I bet a simple low fence hop might take one into a network of yards leading undoubtedly to a main public street. While we are able to see say 3-4 routes the ripper could take from Mitre Square to Goulston street, there are probably dozens more.

[The Cenci]

A lot of this is based on the certainty that he killed Stride - something I'm not 100% on.

If he did his getaway in either direction had advantages. If he went down Fairclough St he would no longer be on the same road as the murder and had he walked back up to Commercial Road and back in with the throng and hiding in plain sight.

If he did head that way towards Mitre Square he would pass the entrance to Gunthorpe St. That struck me as odd when I made the same journey last month.

I'd say the Chapman killing was the riskiest, being in daylight. Whitechapel wasn't on its guard for the Nicholls murder and he took his time with Kelly.

I've always thought he wore a long coat or even a cape to hide the blood.

[jason_c]

I think the fact he did disappear a few times shows it must have been relatively easy at that time of night. The best witness statements we have come from sightings before a murder or during a murder not after a murder.

[John G]

There is this story I read, I think, Pinkerton's detective agency, but could be wrong, did a demonstration and cordoned off a small street area with the intention of creating a non-public vacuum. Within a few minutes people appeared having taken passages not noticed or monitored by detectives. Whitechapel's environmental setting allowed for the use of special pathways to those experienced enough with them.

That's a good point. Chief Inspector Moore is quoted as saying that at one murder scene the police attempted to seal off the area by forming a circle, guarding what they believed was every entrance and approach. However, within a few minutes 50 people had breached the cordon, via two passageways the police didn't even know existed.

[Batman]

There is this story I read, I think, Pinkerton's detective agency, but could be wrong, did a demonstration and cordoned off a small street area with the intention of creating a non-public vacuum. Within a few minutes people appeared having taken passages not noticed or monitored by detectives. Whitechapel's environmental setting allowed for the use of special pathways to those experienced enough with them.

[Jon Guy]

Hello YS

Have a read of these contemporary accounts of walking around Whitechapel.
Taken from the Casebook Victorian London menu:

http://www.casebook.org/victorian_london/autumnev.html

http://www.casebook.org/victorian_london/whitechapel3.html

http://www.casebook.org/victorian_london/whitesat.html

[Rosella]

I've just been reading about a well known 23 year old cold case here in Victoria which has featured an arrest this week.

I have a book on the case and some of the witnesses had variations (naturally enough, I suppose) of between 15 minutes to half an hour in their statements of what was seen and not seen. If people with wrist watches and access to modern technology can't come up with accurate times, what hope was there for witnesses in the 1880's?

If you factor in lodging houses that gave access to dark passages and staircases to passers by, alleyways located everywhere that were as black as the ace of spades, and conversely, streets that were sometimes extremely noisy and busy, there wouldn't be any problem in Jack disappearing afterwards.He could just disappear into the crowd.

Especially remember that men who worked in abbatoirs and horse slaughterers often walked back home from work with blood on their clothing. What's the old saying about hiding something in an obvious place?

[lynn cates]

trick

Hello Jon. Well thought-out post, as always.

The biggest trick in Mitre may have been that Kate's assailant knew Watkins was doing a reverse beat. Else they should have net somewhere on Mitre st.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

I think he probably just blended into the crowd. Also, Whitechapel was an extremely small but overcrowded district. As I understand it, it was a labyrinth of passageways and narrow courts; it was also very poorly lit at night.

Nonetheless, the killer certainly took risks. Mitre Square was regularly patrolled by two police officers. Dutfield's Yard was cloaked in near pitch black darkness, but it was adjacent to a busy club- and Mrs Diemshutz was apparently just a few yards away sitting in the ground floor kitchen with the window open. At Hanbury Street, the murder of Annie Chapman probably took place in daylight, i.e. sunrise, at a time when people were leaving for work; there would also be residents exiting the property to use the outside lavatory, as Albert Cadosch did at 5:15, minutes before Chapman was probably killed. The killer could also have been interrupted, and trapped, by anyone entering the property. At Castle Alley, if you believe McKenzie was a Ripper victim, Dr Inspector Reid remarked at the inquest, "Two constables are continually passing through the alley all night. It is hardly ever left alone for more than five minutes."

It's also possible he could have used a simple disguise. On an other thread it's been mentioned that when the Pinchin Street Torso was discovered- just a few hundred yards for where Stride was killed in Berner Street, but probably the victim of the Torso Murderer- the constable initially asked a street cleaner who just happened to be passing by, to fetch another constable whilst he stayed with the body (he changed his mind and blew his whistle instead). However, my understanding is that the street cleaner was never identified and didn't appear at the inquest. Now when I say street cleaner, he was basically a man with a brush! I would have thought a simple, but effective disguise.

[Amanda]

I think you need to consider whether Jack actually disappeared, blended in to the crowd or perhaps was there all along, watching from the alleyways.
Amanda