How easy was it to disappear?

[Michael W Richards]

There are a few murders where its implausible to imagine he kept himself clear of the blood...one case might be evident in the blood spurts on the wall in the Hanbury backyard, and there is little if any possibility that the person who left room 13 after the murder didn't have blood on him.

I think the key to this question is how long after the murder occurred was it discovered? Polly was probably found very shortly after her murder, so was Liz Stride, and we know Kate was.....we have police beats to provide that data. The Millers Court murder would have resulted in some substantial blood splattering, he moved the body and the organs about a fair bit there. I can see him holding the intestines at arms length while moving them up over the shoulders, but in Hanbury and Mitre Square that was at a height close to the ground...he was holding the viscera of Mary at waist height when placing pieces here and there, so he may well have splattered his boots and pant cuffs there. But as I stated, we have reason to believe that Mary was found quite a few hours after the murder, he could have cleaned himself up a bit before departing there. Maybe that's some of what he threw into the fire.

The most probable answer to his escapes was a local haven, a bolt hole or private room. The Batty Street Lodger might fit that kind of scenario.

Cheers

[harry]

How easy to disappear,would depend on a number of factors.How far did he have to travel.How long before a search could be organised.How many persons were in the immediate vicinity.How likely was he to be recognised if seen.Those are just a few.I believe,given the information known,it would have been comparatively easy.

[Batman]

I think he was well gone before Diemschitz arrived and was disturbed by Schwartz.

[GUT]

Which brings ducking behind the gate to wait and then slipping out back into play.

[GUT]

Where they are sketched in the press, they are a solid hinged wooden panel. They were still common when I was a kid, most business yards had a wicket gate, and none were made to allow you to see into the yard.

Ok just a timber gate then, what I have always known as a wicket gate was like cricket wickets with gaps between the palings, just a terminology thing.

[Wickerman]

Maybe different terminology but I thought a wicket gate, had gaps between the wood.

Where they are sketched in the press, they are a solid hinged wooden panel. They were still common when I was a kid, most business yards had a wicket gate, and none were made to allow you to see into the yard.

P.S. If you are thinking of the wicket in cricket, then it may be of interest to know that the cricket term came from the gate, not the other way around.

[GUT]

It was a double wooden gate, one side had a wicket (door) entry.
The iron railing gate seen in some photo's is a replacement.

"At the entrance to the court are a pair of large wooden gates, in one of which is a small wicket for use when the gates are closed."
http://www.casebook.org/press_report.../18881001.html

Maybe different terminology but I thought a wicket gate, had gaps between the wood.

[Wickerman]

From the pictures I've seen though you could see through the gate, or am I wrong about that.

It was a double wooden gate, one side had a wicket (door) entry.
The iron railing gate seen in some photo's is a replacement.

"At the entrance to the court are a pair of large wooden gates, in one of which is a small wicket for use when the gates are closed."

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/times/18881001.html

[GUT]

Yes, I also think that very likely, or perhaps he hid behind the large gate, it was open near to the wall but there may have been a space available. Either way, once Diemschitz stepped into the Club, he made his getaway.
It's a shame Diemschitz was not asked if he noticed anyone walking away from the yard shortly before he arrived. He was asked if someone could have left as he entered, but not while he approached further up the street.

From the pictures I've seen though you could see through the gate, or am I wrong about that.

[Wickerman]

When Jack heard Diemschutz's pony and cart approaching it's my guess that he retreated back into the sheer darkness of the yard, perhaps the privies.
.
.
He then took his chance to get out either when Diemschutz was in the club telling other members the news or when there were people looking at the body and others were coming and going, before the police arrived, in my opinion.

Yes, I also think that very likely, or perhaps he hid behind the large gate, it was open near to the wall but there may have been a space available. Either way, once Diemschitz stepped into the Club, he made his getaway.
It's a shame Diemschitz was not asked if he noticed anyone walking away from the yard shortly before he arrived. He was asked if someone could have left as he entered, but not while he approached further up the street.

[GUT]

When Jack heard Diemschutz's pony and cart approaching it's my guess that he retreated back into the sheer darkness of the yard, perhaps the privies. If he waited there in the WC's he could have seen what was going on and observed Diemschutz's seeing Liz's body then rushing inside the club.

He then took his chance to get out either when Diemschutz was in the club telling other members the news or when there were people looking at the body and others were coming and going, before the police arrived, in my opinion.

(I think the side door was unlocked so that members could come in and out. In fact one member, Morris Eagle, told a newsman. "It is customary for members of the club to go in by the side door to prevent knocking at the front." It appears the front door may have been locked.)

I've always thought the dunnies were a good bet for a hiding place.

No evidence, but a good place all the same.

[Rosella]

When Jack heard Diemschutz's pony and cart approaching it's my guess that he retreated back into the sheer darkness of the yard, perhaps the privies. If he waited there in the WC's he could have seen what was going on and observed Diemschutz's seeing Liz's body then rushing inside the club.

He then took his chance to get out either when Diemschutz was in the club telling other members the news or when there were people looking at the body and others were coming and going, before the police arrived, in my opinion.

(I think the side door was unlocked so that members could come in and out. In fact one member, Morris Eagle, told a newsman. "It is customary for members of the club to go in by the side door to prevent knocking at the front." It appears the front door may have been locked.)

[GUT]

Errata and GUT;
I'm talking about getting away from the crime scene notably the International Workingmen's Educational Club. To my mind, if Jack was ever going to be caught that would have been the place. As we all know that didn't happen. In the novel I have him hiding in the shadows until Deimschutz goes into the club to get help. Is this plausible given the area and the rapidity of the Eddowes murder following?

Totally plausible, it may not have been his preference but once Deimschutz disturbs him, what else does he do, he doesn't jump out and say it was me, he tries to hide [successfully] first opportunity scampers then when he spots Eddows!!!

That works in a novel.

[Errata]

Errata and GUT;
I'm talking about getting away from the crime scene notably the International Workingmen's Educational Club. To my mind, if Jack was ever going to be caught that would have been the place. As we all know that didn't happen. In the novel I have him hiding in the shadows until Deimschutz goes into the club to get help. Is this plausible given the area and the rapidity of the Eddowes murder following?

It remains true that if you want to remain hidden from the eyes of a crowd, up is where you want to go. Nobody looks up. Especially when they are looking down on a body. If you look at the pictures of Berner st., all of those building have roof access. You can tell by the kind of chimneys they have. He just needed one open door. And ironically the IWEC had an open door. I mean this is fiction. In reality likely those doors were locked and he would have to kick one in to start roof walking. And roof walking i s not easy even on flat roofs. But it's not inconceivable that the door was unlocked. That roof access was not a big deal there. It was usually locked off to prevent kids from getting up there. But hypothetically he could have been standing on the roof of a building watching them process the scene. Unless he made noise, no one would be looking up.

[Batman]

but it is becoming clear to me that Whitechapel was as one observer termed it a rabbit warren. Thanks everybody!

Yes and to become an expert in stealth and where to go/hide one need to do no less than learn from the very victims JtR went with. Just look where Martha Tabram ended up. There is nothing to stop someone on a good diet of carrots going back over old ground in the dark. If the ladies of the night could avoid detection, then you didn't have to be Einstein to learn it either. The amateur detectives who dressed up and went out even found doorways to hide in and accidentally shock passers by.

The description of JtR outside of Hutchinson paints the picture of an 20-30 yr average looking boring short stout peaked cap moustache wearing 'throw a stone in Whitechapel on market day and hit one by accident' looking person. There were probably hundreds of people who looked like him trawling the place for whatever vice could be provided at night.