Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi George,

Just quoting and discussing evidence can be enough to get you in trouble around here.

I'm wondering about your idea of Goldstein walking up Berner St and going to the cafe, before heading back down the street and being seen a second time, by another woman. I'm stuck at this point...

I should think I must have heard it if the poor creature screamed at all, for I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police.

My problem is that this doesn't sound like the 15 to 20 minutes necessary. More like 3 or 4.

There was a newspaper article that said Goldstein lived in one of the houses in Duffield's yard.

If that's the case, then why did he walk hurriedly past the yard and walk around the corner?

If he had just come from the coffee house in spectacle alley, then why didn't he just go home by walking into the yard?

When Mortimer observed him looking up at the club; she may have misinterpreted his line of sight and he may instead have looked directly at the killer standing over Stride.

And perhaps he only began walking hurriedly AFTER he looked up to the club?

If Mortimer heard Goldstein pass her door with measured footsteps and then immediately went to her door, she may have observed him just at the moment he looked up at the club and thus she perceived he was walking hurriedly.

IF it was Goldstein that Mortimer heard walking oast her door, then there's evidence of a change of pace from Goldstein.

But if that's the case, then why the change of pace?

Ultimately, if Goldstein did indeed live in the yard...then why did he walk past his own house and around the corner into Faircloth Street?

[Jon Guy]

I fed ChatGPT the relevant section of Swanson's report, and asked about the phrasing under discussion. Output:

The phrase **"If Schwartz is to be believed..."** is a key point in the author's analysis, suggesting a level of **uncertainty or conditionality** about the accuracy of Schwartz's testimony. Essentially, the author is acknowledging that there are **differences in witness statements**, but they are working under the assumption that Schwartz’s version is **more likely to be true**, unless proven otherwise. Here's a breakdown of the meaning:

### 1. **Acknowledging Uncertainty**
The phrase introduces a **conditional assumption**. The author is saying, "If Schwartz’s testimony is accurate and truthful..." but not asserting this as an absolute fact. This indicates some level of **skepticism or the possibility of error**, even though Schwartz’s account is given weight by the police and the details he provided seem to align with other aspects of the crime scene.

### 2. **Conditional Analysis**
The author then continues by pointing out that if Schwartz is correct, **the man Schwartz saw is more likely to be the murderer**. This conclusion is built on the premise that Schwartz’s version of events (the description of the man with the woman, and the shouting of "Lipski") is reliable and accurate.

In contrast, there’s a mention of a **difference in descriptions** between Schwartz and PC Smith (another witness), particularly regarding the appearance and clothing of the man. If these two descriptions are of different people, the author argues that Schwartz's description may be **the more plausible one**, leading to the possibility that **the man Schwartz saw is the actual killer**.

### 3. **Implication of Trust in Schwartz’s Account**
The phrase "If Schwartz is to be believed" suggests that the author sees **Schwartz’s testimony as credible**, or at least **potentially more credible** than the conflicting account provided by PC Smith. However, the use of the conditional phrasing also means that the author is not asserting Schwartz’s account as unquestionably true, and is leaving room for the possibility that other interpretations or evidence could arise.

### 4. **Rationale for Doubt in the Other Witness (PC Smith)**
By drawing attention to the **serious differences** in the descriptions given by Schwartz and PC Smith, the author implies that **if they are describing different men**, Schwartz's account seems **more likely** to be the one that aligns with the murder scene and its details.

This conclusion also raises the idea that **the man Schwartz saw might be the murderer**, particularly if there’s doubt about the reliability of PC Smith’s version.

### In Summary:
The phrase **"If Schwartz is to be believed..."** expresses a **hypothetical stance** based on the assumption that Schwartz’s testimony is accurate. It sets the stage for the author to argue that if Schwartz’s description is correct, then the man he saw is more likely to be the murderer, as opposed to the man described by PC Smith. It acknowledges the possibility of error or alternative explanations, but ultimately treats Schwartz’s account as the more probable one for explaining the crime.

Thanks for this. I concur with the summary.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

There was a newspaper article that said Goldstein lived in one of the houses in Duffield's yard.


Ultimately, if Goldstein did indeed live in the yard...then why did he walk past his own house and around the corner into Faircloth Street?

Are you thinking of Joseph Lave: I am a Russian, and have recently arrived from the United States. I am residing temporarily at the club.

Swanson's report states:
About 1 a.m. 30th. Leon Goldstein of 22 Christian Street, Commercial Road, called at Leman Street and stated that he was the man that passed down Berner Street with a black bag at that hour, that the bag contained empty cigarette boxes and that he had left a coffee house in Spectacle Alley a short time before.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Is the second man being near the Nelson Tavern, compatible with him being on the opposite side of the street, as in the police account?

ChatGPT:
No, the second man being near the Nelson Tavern is not fully compatible with him being described as standing on the opposite side of the street in the police account.

### The Issue:
In the police account, Israel Schwartz describes the second man as standing across the street from the first man and the woman when the initial confrontation took place. This would imply that the second man was on the opposite side of Berner Street from where the woman was, near the gateway where the assault happened.

On the other hand, in the Star newspaper account, the second man is described as being near the Nelson Tavern. The tavern was located on the same side of the street as the gateway where the assault took place.

### The Incompatibility:
- Opposite Side of the Street: The police account makes it clear that Schwartz saw the second man across the street from the first man, which suggests the second man was positioned on the north side of Berner Street.
- Near the Nelson Tavern: If the second man were near the Nelson Tavern, that would place him on the same side of the street as the gateway (i.e., the south side of Berner Street).

These two descriptions don’t line up. Either:
- The Star newspaper account could be incorrectly attributing the second man to the Nelson Tavern, or
- The police account could have been mistaken in placing the second man across the street from the scene of the incident, and he might have actually been near the tavern.

### Possible Explanations for the Discrepancy:
1. Different Interpretations or Details: The police account was focused on a precise, factual description of the man's position relative to the gateway, while the Star account was more dramatic and vague, possibly blending details to create a more compelling narrative.

2. Position Relative to the Tavern: It's possible the second man was near the tavern but not directly in front of it. The phrase "a few doors off" could indicate that he was not immediately in front of the tavern but rather in its vicinity, perhaps still across the street from where Schwartz saw the first man and woman.

3. Sensationalism in Reporting: The Star might have exaggerated the scene to make it more engaging for readers, placing the second man near a familiar landmark (the tavern) for dramatic effect, even if that detail wasn't entirely accurate.

### Conclusion:
The second man's position, as described in both accounts, presents a contradiction in terms of location—either in the police account, where he is described as across the street, or in the Star account, where he is positioned near the Nelson Tavern. This discrepancy may be due to interpretational differences, errors in reporting, or embellishments in the sensational press coverage.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Is it possible that "the doorway a few doors off" is a mistranslation of the entrance/exit to Hampshire Court?

ChatGPT:
Yes, it is possible that the phrase "the doorway a few doors off" in the Star newspaper account could be a mistranslation or misinterpretation referring to the entrance/exit to Hampshire Court rather than the Nelson Tavern. Here's how this might make sense:

### 1. Proximity to the Scene:
- Hampshire Court was very close to Berner Street, and it would make sense for someone to be standing near or coming out of its entrance, as it was a known location near the crime scene. The phrasing of "a few doors off" could simply be an imprecise way of referring to a nearby landmark or access point.

### 2. Ambiguity in the Language:
- The use of the phrase "a few doors off" is somewhat vague. In the context of 19th-century journalism, it might have been a loose expression intended to convey proximity without specifying the exact location. It could have been interpreted as referring to Hampshire Court, which was close but not immediately at the crime scene.

### 3. Hampshire Court’s Connection:
- Hampshire Court was a small, somewhat secluded area that could have served as an entrance or exit used by those walking between Berner Street and other nearby streets. The entrance/exit to Hampshire Court could be what the Star reporter intended to describe, as it would have been a reasonable location for someone to be lingering, watching the scene, or even meeting with the woman (later recognized as the deceased).

### 4. Possible Mistranslation of Location:
- If the Star reporter misunderstood or miscommunicated the exact location where the man was seen, they might have mistaken Hampshire Court’s entrance for something more familiar, like the Nelson Tavern. Given that Hampshire Court was a minor access point and not a prominent landmark like the tavern, the reporter could have assumed the reference to be more public or notable, leading to the misstatement.

### 5. Why Hampshire Court?:
- If the second man was near Hampshire Court, it would also explain his possible proximity to the crime scene without complicating the location too much. The confusion may have arisen from the specific nature of Hampshire Court, which was a small entryway and might not have been as easily identifiable as the tavern.

---

### Conclusion:
Given the proximity of Hampshire Court to Berner Street, and the vague phrasing of "a few doors off," it is plausible that the Star account might have intended to describe the entrance to Hampshire Court but did so in a way that was less precise or misinterpreted as the Nelson Tavern. The location could easily be confused due to the close proximity of both sites and the ambiguous language used in the report.

[Herlock Sholmes]

[Sunny Delight]

Hi Sunny,

As I say, I'm not suggesting that interpretation is doesn't fit the written statement. However, the written statement is constructed in a way that is also consistent with the desire to convey a "double conditional" (meaning, two if's, even though the 2nd one is assumed rather than presented).

Wickerman's ball game is a good example of a "double conditional with the 2nd if assumed". Another might be, "If it is a nice day tomorrow, and I have time, I will go for a walk." The meaning of that sentence is exactly the same as "If it is a nice day tomorrow, and if I have time, I will go for a walk." There's no change in the intended meaning by dropping the 2nd if as it becomes "assumed." The issue, though, is that it creates an ambiguity because one could interpret my first sentence as me already knowing I have the time, so my walk is only conditional on the weather. The "assumed if" creates potential ambiguity.

Now, with regards to my own reading, I tend to read things as you do, that the "no doubt" portion is being presented as an answer to the implied question as to whether or not Schwartz is to be believed. So he's clarifying his position on the first point. However, I do see Wickerman's suggestion that follows the "assumed if" reading of the statement as being a viable option.

Language is a remarkably crude and imprecise tool despite our tendency to view it as concise and effective. Years of reading student papers, and in having my own writing put to scrutiny and asked for clarifications on points I thought crystal clear, have made me question how any information gets conveyed at all sometimes!

- Jeff

Again Jeff I must disagree. By inserting a second 'if' into the text it changes the whole meaning. Not to mention it doesn't make any sense since Swanson had read the Police report on the matter.

"If Schwartz is to be believed, and the Police report of his statement casts no doubt about it".

That could not be any clearer. By inserting a second 'if' it changes the entire meaning.

"If Schwartz is to be believed, and if the Police report of his statement casts no doubt about it".

That is fundamentally different phrasing now. What Swanson was saying is that the Police don't doubt Schwartz statement, but with the insertion of a second 'if', it now makes it sound like the Police haven't come to a conclusion or even worse that Swanson hasn't read the report.

Honestly I don't know how anyone can read it any other way. The Police don't doubt Schwartz statement.

[c.d.]

"If Schwartz is to be believed, and the Police report of his statement casts no doubt about it".

My take is that Swanson is implying that the police were initially skeptical of his account because he arrived after the event began to take place, he only was on the scene a short while and he didn't understand what was being said between the man and the woman. Swanson then seems to imply but after taking all those factors into account and getting further details the police eventually believed his story.

c.d.

[JeffHamm]

Again Jeff I must disagree. By inserting a second 'if' into the text it changes the whole meaning. Not to mention it doesn't make any sense since Swanson had read the Police report on the matter.

"If Schwartz is to be believed, and the Police report of his statement casts no doubt about it".

That could not be any clearer. By inserting a second 'if' it changes the entire meaning.

"If Schwartz is to be believed, and if the Police report of his statement casts no doubt about it".

That is fundamentally different phrasing now. What Swanson was saying is that the Police don't doubt Schwartz statement, but with the insertion of a second 'if', it now makes it sound like the Police haven't come to a conclusion or even worse that Swanson hasn't read the report.

Honestly I don't know how anyone can read it any other way. The Police don't doubt Schwartz statement.

Hi Sunny,

As I say, I read it as you do, but that's not the point really. I agree, that the reading we both come to has a different meaning than the reading when the 2nd "if" is inserted. By inserting the 2nd "if" the sentence becomes unambiguous and now only points to a meaning different from the one we have.

However, what Wickerman is pointing out is that the construction of the sentence, as written, is ambiguous and it can be read two ways, one of which is how we read it. The other, however, means exactly the same thing as the unambiguous version with the two "ifs". That's the problem with ambiguous sentences, the same words can mean two different concepts.

We are left with trying to determine which of those two ambiguous concepts Swanson actually intended. It doesn't matter how we read it, because we didn't write it. What matters is what Swanson himself was trying to convey, and the sentence can be interpreted two ways. Both Wickerman's ball game example and my going for a walk example are demonstrations how how that sentence construction can easily mean a "double if, with the 2nd assumed", so it's not a stretch and it is used.

So yes, inserting the 2nd if does rule out one of the possible interpretations, because including it removes the ambiguity. But the point is that inserting the 2nd if does not change the other possible interpretation (because the other possible interpretation assumes the 2nd if in the first place). If you and I have read it in a way that Swanson did not intend, then no matter how strongly we feel that is what it means, we're wrong because we're reading it not as Swanson intended.

The issue is how likely is Swanson to use the "assumed if" version in this situation? Not whether inserting the 2nd if changes the meaning from the interpretation that doesn't include an assumed if, because of course it does, and that's why it's an important point.

I've been thinking on this because these sorts of problems are one's I find very interesting because of how they challenge my own beliefs.

There's something different about Swanson's use and the examples given to illustrate sentences where the 2nd if is assumed (the ball game and going for a walk examples). And I think what is different is that, in the examples used, the two bits of information (fine weather and having time) are two unrelated concepts, while in Swanson's statement, both "bits" are interwoven with the idea of "belief in Schwartz".

An assumed if is used when the two "bits" are independent, but in Swanson's case, the "If Schwartz is to be believed" is entirely dependent upon the second bit, which is the police report about Schwartz. They are not independent conditionals rather the answer to first bit comes from the second bit, and in such a case it is very unusual for an assumed if to be intended. It would be like my walk example being "If the weather is fine, and the forecast says it will be, then I will go for a walk". It would be very odd now for me to mean "If the weather is fine, and if the forecast says it will be, then I will go for a walk" even though that's a similar structure in many ways to "If the weather is fine, and I have the time, then I will go for a walk", where the 2nd if is intended but not stated. Rather, when the "two bits" are so directly related, the 2nd bit tends to indicate to the other person "which side of the first If should be favoured".

I know this may seem a bit pedantic, but I've been trying to figure out why I still read Swanson's statement as confirming trust in Schwartz despite Wickerman's example and the one I presented, both of which suggest that might not be wrong. Either my reading is biasing me, which is possible, or there was something else. And having considered the examples and Swanson's use, it was the above differences that struck me.

So, in the end I agree with you on what Swanson was trying to convey. I think Swanson's statement is of the sort where an "assumed if" version would not be intended because it doesn't fit the situation that allows for an "assumed if". And it's not because the general structure of his statement doesn't conform to the "assumed if structure", but because the "two bits" of information are not independent requirements, but rather the 2nd bit acts as a sort of "answer" to the first if, which makes them a "question-answer" construction, and that is not a case that allows for a 2nd if to be assumed.

- Jeff

[DJA]

[Lewis C]

I gave ChatGPT these reports, referring to them as Report A, B & C. I asked the question, is the same woman the subject of all 3 reports? Output:

No, the reports describe different women. Report A details a woman who lives near the club and hears the policeman passing. Report B mentions Mrs. Mortimer, who lives further away and discovers the body. Report C focuses on a neighbor, who first responds to the scene and provides more details about the murder. While there are overlapping details, they refer to different individuals.

Hi Andrew,

If ChatGPT interprets one of these reports as saying that Fanny discovered the body, that alone says to me that it's of little value. It's also unable to account for the article specifically mentioning Fanny giving the wrong location for her, while the article that gives the correct location for where Fanny lived doesn't mention her name.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Again Jeff I must disagree. By inserting a second 'if' into the text it changes the whole meaning. Not to mention it doesn't make any sense since Swanson had read the Police report on the matter.

"If Schwartz is to be believed, and the Police report of his statement casts no doubt about it".

That could not be any clearer. By inserting a second 'if' it changes the entire meaning.

"If Schwartz is to be believed, and if the Police report of his statement casts no doubt about it".

That is fundamentally different phrasing now. What Swanson was saying is that the Police don't doubt Schwartz statement, but with the insertion of a second 'if', it now makes it sound like the Police haven't come to a conclusion or even worse that Swanson hasn't read the report.

Honestly I don't know how anyone can read it any other way. The Police don't doubt Schwartz statement.

The phrase "If Schwartz is to be believed", means that whatever follows is conditional on something. If the police don't doubt Schwartz and that is all there is to it, the phrase would be redundant. So, your explanation does not explain why this phrase appears in the report.

The purpose of the second 'if' is to allow us to believe that any uncertainty does not pertain to the truth of Schwartz's account, but rather to the (supposedly) still incomplete police report. As a bonus, it also allows us to explain Schwartz's non-appearance at the inquest - the coroner was still waiting for this report on Oct 23, and thus felt compelled not to adjourn the inquest again, while waiting for an appropriate time to call Schwartz.

Either of these false interpretations allows us to ignore the doubts of the Leman St police, reported in the Star, Oct 2.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

If ChatGPT interprets one of these reports as saying that Fanny discovered the body, that alone says to me that it's of little value. It's also unable to account for the article specifically mentioning Fanny giving the wrong location for her, while the article that gives the correct location for where Fanny lived doesn't mention her name.

These points can be clarified or corrected, by asking follow-up questions.

For example, it told me about Leon Goldstein's movements on Berner St, in an acceptable manner except for claiming that Goldstein had seen a couple. When I asked for clarification, it retracted that claim. Interestingly, it is quite possible that Goldstein did see the couple by the board school, so perhaps ChatGPT was right the first time.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Does the Echo report suggest that the second man was known to one or more members of the working men's club on Berner St?

ChatGPT:
Yes, the Echo report suggests that the second man may have been known to members of the working men's club on Berner Street. In this report, it is mentioned that a man was seen in the vicinity of the crime scene, and it’s implied that some members of the local community, including those from the working men's club, were familiar with him.

Here’s why this suggests the second man might have been known to them:

### 1. The Second Man’s Behavior and Familiarity:
- The Echo report indicates that the second man was near the area of Berner Street around the time of the incident. This places him within the local community, which is relevant because the working men's club was a social hub for people living in or around the area.
- The working men’s club was a prominent establishment where local residents would often gather, and it is possible that regular patrons of the club would recognize people who frequented the area, including the second man.

### 2. The Second Man’s Interaction with the Area:
- The second man was described as being on the opposite side of the street from the woman and the first man. He was lighting a pipe at the time Schwartz witnessed the incident. This suggests he was not an unfamiliar figure, but rather someone who was likely integrated into the local community, given his casual behavior and apparent lack of concern about being seen.
- If he were a stranger, his actions might have drawn more attention, especially in a tight-knit community like Berner Street.

### 3. Possibility of Local Knowledge:
- The Echo report suggests that some people in the area (such as those in the working men's club) may have had some knowledge of the second man, which could indicate that he was a regular in the neighborhood. This local recognition could explain why some individuals might have spoken of him or been aware of his presence near the scene of the crime.

### 4. Context of the Crime Scene:
- Berner Street was a busy area, and if the second man had been known in the vicinity, this would make sense in the context of his apparent familiarity with the area. It suggests that the second man was not an outsider but someone who may have had connections or a presence in the neighborhood, which would be typical of someone who frequented local places like the working men's club.

### Conclusion:
The Echo report seems to hint at the idea that the second man may have been known to members of the working men's club on Berner Street, suggesting that he was a familiar figure in the local area. This could imply that the second man was a regular or resident of the area, which aligns with the idea that he and the first man were not just random individuals but likely had some degree of familiarity with the neighborhood and its residents.

[Wickerman]

...

"If Schwartz is to be believed, and the Police report of his statement casts no doubt about it".

That could not be any clearer. By inserting a second 'if' it changes the entire meaning.

....

Yes, of course it does, that's the whole point.

It is precisely because it does change the whole meaning that we can't say for sure which meaning was intended.
Because, Schwartz was not summonsed to the inquest, and we don't know why.

If you (in place of Swanson) have confirmation of his story, you don't begin your sentence by questioning the validity of that same story.
That, is what makes no sense at all.

You are saying Swanson has a document (the report) that confirms Schwartz's story, but he begins by saying, "If Schwartz is to be believed".
That logic is backwards, he already knows it is confirmed by the report.


What I am saying is, set aside that conventional interpretation for a moment, and look at it a different way.

Take the view for a moment that Swanson does not believe Schwartz story.
He raises the question - "if Schwartz is to be believed, and if the conclusion of our investigation, in a report confirms it.......etc"

It doesn't matter whether he uses two "ifs" or one "if", the meaning stays the same.

Swanson is withholding his belief until the investigation is concluded, and he has the report in his hand.

This would also be consistent with the press report suggesting "the Leman-street police have reason to doubt his story".

Sunny, all the pieces of evidence have to point in the same direction - you can't have Swanson accepting his story, while the Leman-street police doubt the story - that's conflict, and it tells you something is wrong.

(Leman-street was CID headquarters in H division)