Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[Filby]

nothing is missing. schwartz witnessed the beginning of a murderous assault on stride, and based on the nights witness descriptions of the killer, the MO , victimology and time frame, the perpetrator was undoubtedly the ripper. its really just that simple.

I agree. I also believe that Schwartz downplayed the violence so as not to have explain why he and the men didn't intervene. Purely speculation but he clearly wanted no part in helping Stride either way

[Abby Normal]

I agree. I also believe that Schwartz downplayed the violence so as not to have explain why he and the men didn't intervene. Purely speculation but he clearly wanted no part in helping Stride either way

thanks filby. ill go further than that. he was a coward, who probably could have saved her life and possibly even helped catch the ripper.

[DJA]

Dave's humor often requires some background knowledge.
You might remember we have two reports of what BS-man is accused of, in one he pushed Stride, in the other he pulled Stride.
The animal in the photo was known as - a Push me pull you, in the movie, if I recall correctly.

Bit OT,however the actor in the picture was Rex Harrison,husband of Kay Kendall,a descendant of Mary Ann Kelly's landlord at 13 Millers Court.

[FISHY1118]

Dave's humor often requires some background knowledge.
You might remember we have two reports of what BS-man is accused of, in one he pushed Stride, in the other he pulled Stride.
The animal in the photo was known as - a Push me pull you, in the movie, if I recall correctly.

He indeed has a funny sense of humor . im familier withe the animal pic he posted and the name .

Getting back to the the two different versions of whether B.S '' Pushed'' stride into the ally or ''Pulled'' stride into the street. Its worth noting, although the Stars newspaper report dated 1st Oct [the day after the murder] has the ''pushed version'', Swansons offical report dated the 19th of Oct has the ''pulled'' one . Given that Schwartz gave his statement to the police the next day[ i stand corrected if thats wrong ], its more than likely that this is the statement that Chief Inspector Swanson wrote up his report from . Meaning ,well to me anyway the any ''Offcial'' report would have to trump a newspaper report to which for any number of discrepancies, cant be verifiied to its accuracy . Just my opinion of course.

[DJA]

Especially The Star.

[The Rookie Detective]

nothing is missing. schwartz witnessed the beginning of a murderous assault on stride, and based on the nights witness descriptions of the killer, the MO , victimology and time frame, the perpetrator was undoubtedly the ripper. its really just that simple.

Except, the behaviour exhibited by BS Man is far removed from all his other kills as it could possibly be.

Attacking his victim in the street with at least 1 witness within a few yards?

If BS man was the Ripper, then we are dealing with nothing more than an aggressive street thug/gang member, with an unhealthy addition to cutting up women.

Perhaps that's the mystery right there.

All this time we've been considering the Ripper was a cold calm psychopath; when all along we should have been looking for a random thug, who got lucky.


Hmmm...


Really?

[FISHY1118]

I tend to agree with you R.D , I believe B.S was Strides killer but he wasnt Jack the Ripper .

[Jon Guy]

Good Morning

Except, the behaviour exhibited by BS Man is far removed from all his other kills as it could possibly be.

We can`t say that as we don`t know what the Ripper`s behaviour was.

Attacking his victim in the street with at least 1 witness within a few yards?

Which witness ?
If you mean Schwartz, BS Man had already thrown Stride around by the time he saw Schwartz.

If BS man was the Ripper, then we are dealing with nothing more than an aggressive street thug/gang member, with an unhealthy addition to cutting up women.

BINGO !!
Not sure why he would be a gang member but an aggressive street thug he was.
I mean. look at the damage done to Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly. Not just with the knife, but the manual violence such as strangling, bruising and finger scratch marks.

All this time we've been considering the Ripper was a cold calm psychopath;

Really ?

[The Rookie Detective]

Good Morning



We can`t say that as we don`t know what the Ripper`s behaviour was.




Which witness ?
If you mean Schwartz, BS Man had already thrown Stride around by the time he saw Schwartz.




BINGO !!
Not sure why he would be a gang member but an aggressive street thug he was.
I mean. look at the damage done to Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly. Not just with the knife, but the manual violence such as strangling, bruising and finger scratch marks.



Really ?

Then I would suggest that IF the Ripper was nothing more than an average street thug; that the police officers responsible for apprehending the killer were as inept and as incompetent as one could imagine.

The idea that the Ripper was a Psychopath is a least a tenable excuse as to why he Ripper eluded capture, in that the police had no idea what kind of man they were dealing with.

If however the Ripper wasn't a psychopath, then there's really little excuse as to why the police failed to catch the perpetrator.
Unless of course, the killer was protected by the community for whatever reason, was a police informant, or formed part of an extortion/prostitution rachet into which some corrupt officers were also members of.

But, i'm not really one for such conspiracy theories.


What we are left with is a situation whereby the Police couldn't even catch a careless drunk like BS Man.


Now unless Bs Man was a bent copper, then the failure of the police to apprehend the man, is inexcusable.

Perhaps if the victims weren't of the lower class, the senior officers may have had more of a stimulus to catch the killer.

The Ripper having been a clinical psychopath is the police's only credible defence as to why they ultimately failed in their arguably lacklustre endeavours.

And that is the reason why I believe that Bs Man was not only NOT the killer...but that he also never even existed in the first place.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Its not so much that ''We dont have one'' more, and seeing that i believe B.S was Strides killer and he was never apprehended or questioned, ''We dont know one ''.

So, no motive and no identification of the man by the police. What then, is the reason for your belief?

Why do we need an explaination for Pipemans actions or inaction ? How does that change Strides dimise after B.S cut her throat.?

If Pipeman's behaviour is inexplicable, it is possible that Schwartz did not give the full story.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Parcelman had to have gone somewhere AFTER being seen with Stride by PC Smith and BEFORE Mortimer came to her door.

From Interview with a Neighbour:

"Was the street quiet at the time?"

"Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club."

How do you know that Parcelman wasn't "hardly anybody"?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Not 'literally', not in any way imaginable is the back door of a pub in the next street to be regognised as 'a few doors off'.

Right, but I don't think the reference was to the door of that pub. More below.

'Out of the doorway' is not out of the building.

It is if the doorway is at the edge of the building and the outside world.

No, no no, it doesn't work that way.
Claiming 'error in translation' is not a blank sheet that allows you to invent any scenario that comes to mind.
You are required to offer an example.

If you remember the issue of the man carrying a pipe or knife was suggested to be an error in translation. Several of us at the time looked up the word for knife in Hebrew (if I recall correctly?), and the word for knife sounded much like the word for pipe (or was it the other way around?).
Regardless, the argument had no substance without showing how close the words were in pronunciation, in order to justify the claim of 'error in translation'.
You have treated the 'error in translation' scenario as if it is a black hole that permits you to make any suggestion you feel like.
In what language does 'court' sound like 'doorway'?

According to the website Glosbe, the English 'entrance' translates to the Hungarian 'bejárat', meaning: The place of entering, as a gate or doorway

bab.la lists some translations

There is enough ambiguity there to suppose that what was said was something like: A second man came out of the entranceway to the public-house, a few doors off

Pipeman was never described as being at the entrance of any court.

Going back to the Home Office correspondence I mentioned a few pages back...

It does not appear whether the man used the word "Lipski" as a mere ejaculation, meaning in mockery I am going to "Lipski" the woman, or whether he was calling to a man across the road by his proper name. In the latter case, assuming that the man using the word was the murderer, the murderer must have an acquaintance in Whitechapel named Lipski.

Relative to the man who called 'Lipski', was the man being called to:

A) Across the road
B) On the same side of the road

That is not specifically at the entrance of the court...

...but finding that he was followed by the second man he ran so far as the railway arch but the man did not follow so far.

So, we have a man who was across the road and who followed Schwartz as he heads toward Fairclough St, implying that the man began from a position behind him, which is compatible with him starting at the entrance of the court. As Schwartz has apparently escaped his pursuer, we might suppose that was in part due to having a substantial 'head-start'.

It depends on the scenario, he could have been hiding if he was involved, or merely getting out of the breeze to light a pipe, if not involved.

If the man came out of the pub, common sense suggests that he should have lit up before getting into a breeze. That is, while still inside the pub.

If he had been hiding, waiting to 'pounce' on the unsuspecting woman at the gateway, then one wonders how long she had been at the gateway, unseen by anyone. It would be some coincidence if she arrived there the moment Schwartz entered the street, and even more so if this man begins hiding outside the doorway of the pub, at the same moment.

Presumably James Brown's trip to the chandler's shop did not coincide with the presence of Hiding Man.

[The Rookie Detective]

From Interview with a Neighbour:

"Was the street quiet at the time?"

"Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club."

How do you know that Parcelman wasn't "hardly anybody"?

You're quite right, but my point is that Stride did not move over to the gateway from where she had been seen standing with Parcelman by PC Smith, until AFTER Eagle had gone back into the club.

That indicates that when Eagle returned to the club; presumably only a minute or so after Pc Smith had left; that Parcel man and Stride were still talking in the same spot as Eagle walked past them without noticing them.

Eagle tries the front door and then finding it locked, then walks into the yard.

It is from THIS point that Stride walks over to the gateway either with OR without Parcelman.

Then, when Mortimer comes to her door and sees nobody motion towards the yard; then that indicates that Stride needed to have moved to the gateway BEFORE Mortimer looks down the street.

From the visual line of sight that Mortimer would of had, she would have seen Stride walk over to the gateway, but she didn't.

That shows that Stride had to have moved over to the gateway between Eagle going into the yard and Mortimer looking out from her position at her door.

Now the anomaly is Lave.

Lave wasn't seen by Pc Smith, unless Lave was also Parcelman.

As for whether Parcelman was Lave or not; If he was, then it gives an explanation of where Parcelman went; ergo, back into the club.

That's not to say that Parcel man was the killer

But if Parcelman was Lave, it supports the fact that Parcelman was not seen leaving Berner Street by anyone.

Of course, we also have Schwartz's statement.


It is pretty clear from all of the combined witness evidence that the assault described by Schwartz didn't take place; and if it did, then Bs Man was most likely the killer, and almost certainly not the Ripper.

But why would a man come forward (Schwartz).and place himself at the scene of the crime and within a time frame consistent with the time a woman was murdered?

Seems unlikely.

But what if there was another reason for a man coming forward under the guise of a witness to an assault outside the club?

Well, let's just say, I have another idea for his reasoning that I am currently formulating and will present in a separate thread in due course.

But in terms of physical location, Schwartz's claim that Stirde was standing in the gateway when she was assaulted by BS Man, is at least consistent with the idea that Stride was certainly not standing in the same place she was seen in when observed by PC Smith, because Mortimer would have seen her and the fact remains that Stride had to move from the Board School side of the road and over to the gateway at some point between Eagle going into the yard and Mortimer coming to her door.


But let's not forget the positive sighting of Goldstein.

What if there is an explanation for the distinct 2 different timelines that Mortimer appears to give?

Perhaps initially she was standing at her door for the majority of the half an hour between 12.30am-1am.

But then was persuaded to reduce that timing to just 10 minutes.

What if Mortimer's sighting of Goldstein wasn't as it seemed and rather than him walking past and looking up at the club before going around the corner of the board school, that she witnessed him instead coming out of the yard?
Mortimer's sighting of Goldstein walking down Berner Street serves to prove it couldn't have been Goldstein.

But what if it wasn't a case of Goldstein coming forward after being seen by Mortimer, but more a case of Mortimer was seen by Goldstein as he left the yard and Fanny was later convinced to alter what she saw through fear of reprisal hanging over her head.

What if "the witness" who was the only person to see the killer...was Mortimer?

Schwartz Is then brought in by the club to give a false statement of a random street thug assaulting the victim shortly before she was found dead.
This added with a little playing the "race card" by having a man shout "Lipski!" and all of a sudden we have a perfect diversion from any potential focus on a club member being involved.

Schwartz's timing of 12.45am was perhaps giving in a bid to bring the timing of the murder forward from circa 12.55am

The amended and reduced timing of Mortimer, combined with the vindication of Goldstein and the inclusion of a random street thug assault, all come together to throw a shadow over proceedings.

Of course, Goldstein was said to have an alibi, by having been at a coffee house shortly beforehand.

Imagine if there was some circumstantial evidence to link the Berner Street club with the goings-on at the coffee house in which Goldstein claimed to have been?


Now that could be a game changer

[Jon Guy]

The idea that the Ripper was a Psychopath is a least a tenable excuse as to why he Ripper eluded capture, in that the police had no idea what kind of man they were dealing with.

More likely he was a paranoid schizophrenic, like Sutcliffe and Robert Mann, who both evaded capture for a long time.
Or do you have a particular reason for your psychopath diagnosis ?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I agree that if you only consider that part of Fanny's statement, 12:45-12:55 would seem to be the best estimate for what 10 minute period she was standing at her door. However, her saying that she went to her door right after she thought she heard a policeman pass fits well with the idea that she went to her door right after PC Smith passed. However, 12:43 or 12:44 seems a bit late to be the estimate for when PC Smith passed.

The 10-minute period is not 'set in stone'. Perhaps there was an uninterrupted 8-to-10-minute period, followed by a brief period in her own room (possibly to check on her ill husband), followed by a few more minutes at the door. We can never know for sure if that report faithfully captures Fanny's movements. We cannot even state with 100% certainty that she is the subject of that report.

Whatever the case, Fanny Mortimer was quoted as saying: There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe anyone enter the gates.

Would she be so confident that there was no suspicious noise made, had she been out of hearing range of the street for any significant period?