Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[FISHY1118]

As you know, a good murder theory requires a strong motive. In the case of this BS character, we don't have one. Nor do we have a convincing explanation for why the man with the pipe either flees or pursues. It would seem that at least one crucial piece of the picture is missing.

Its not so much that ''We dont have one'' more, and seeing that i believe B.S was Strides killer and he was never apprehended or questioned, ''We dont know one ''.

Why do we need an explaination for Pipemans actions or inaction ? How does that change Strides dimise after B.S cut her throat.?

[Wickerman]

It is the Beehive public house,corner Christian and Fairclough.Might bee 101.
Refer post 729.

Hi Dave.

The Bee Hive is No.71, N/W corner of the intersection.





I didn't know we had a photo of the Bee Hive public house.

[DJA]

That picture was taken in 1938.From the numbers on the door,there had been a bit of renumbering.Thanks

[The Rookie Detective]

Can you explain why Stride moving across the street to the passageway, requires Parcelman to have gone somewhere?



Initially, nowhere.

Parcelman had to have gone somewhere AFTER being seen with Stride by PC Smith and BEFORE Mortimer came to her door.

One of the following scenarios seem most likely...


1 -Parcel man was Lave

Parcel man was Lave, who was seen by PC Smith talking with Stride on the Board School side of the road and AFTER they observed Eagle try the front door and then walk into the yard...EITHER...

...they BOTH cross over to the gateway with Parcelman going into the club, leaving Stride standing in the gateway...OR HE KILLED HER at this point and he casually walks into the club.

OR...

...Parcelman (Lave) crosses over and goes back inside the club with Stride REMAINING on the Board School side of the road. Lave going into the club and Stride walking south, going around the corner, and is then accosted by the "No not tonight" man as witnessed by Brown.
(this scenario would likely make this man the killer who follows Stride as she attempts to go into the club and he follows her; killing her instantly after she rejects him)



2- Parcel man WASN'T Lave

Parcelman and Stride are standing on the Board achool side of the road and after being seen by PC Smith and observing Eagle AND Lave go through the gateway, they...


... BOTH cross over and go into the yard (as above) ... with Parcelman EITHER killing/not killing her AND/OR leaving her alone in the yard/by the gateway (as above)


OR

... after talking with Parcelman, Stride walks over to the gateway alone (after Eagle and Lave have gone) and Parcelman innocently walks south and leaves the scene before being spotted by Brown/Mortimer etc...


What we can be almost certain about is that...


Parcel man WASN'T BS man

Parcel man didn't stay where he was standing in the street AFTER Stride goes over to the gateway, because Mortimer doesn't see him when she comes to her door.

Mortimer was at her door at some point because her sighting of Goldstein is subsequently validated by him coming forward.
That brings a level of credence to her statement at the very least.


Of course, all of the above is based on the assault of Stride occurring AFTER Eagle and Lave have both gone back into the club AND Parcelman has EITHER gone into the club OR walked south and away from the scene.
Parcleman can't walk north without being seen by Schwartz...

unless...

the assault never happened.

This THEN brings about another option.


After talking with Stride, Parcleman walks NORTH and his footsteps are heard just as Mortimer comes to her door.


This then means that by the time Mortimer comes to her door, Stride is EITHER standing inside the gateway OUT OF VIEW and alive and well OR she has been murdered by Parcelman and Mortimer hears the killer pass by her door just after she has been killed.


Of all the above scenarios; it's clear that IF Parcelman was Lave, then he couldn't have walked past Mortimer's door.

But IF Parcelman WASN'T Lave, then it could have been Parcelman who walked past her door.

However, IF the assault did happen, then Parcelman was EITHER Lave/not Lave and went back into the club just before BS Man approaches OR Parcelman is innocent and leaves SOUTH just before Bs Man arrives.


Either way, Schwartz's statement puts Parcleman in the clear, because he can't have been with Stride at the point Bs man assaults her.


Schwartz is there to get Parcelman off the hook...and IF Parcelman was Lave, then that makes things interesting.


Ultimately Parcelman had to have gone somewhere BEFORE Mortimer and Miss Letchford are at their respective doors.


Lots to ponder methinks

[Herlock Sholmes]

The problem with Lave is that no one saw him in the yard. Firstly, it means that we don’t know when he was there or for how long but, more importantly, if he was guilty why would he put himself in the yard when he could easily have told the police that he’d been inside the club from 12.30 to 1.00.

[Wickerman]

It was, literally, a few doors off. Crucially, it was 'open', at 12:45, unlike the Nelson.

Not 'literally', not in any way imaginable is the back door of a pub in the next street to be regognised as 'a few doors off'.

It's interesting that people realise that at 12:45, the Nelson had long closed, yet they are not going to question their belief that a man came out of that doorway.

'Out of the doorway' is not out of the building.

As for the entrance to the court not being a doorway, I've already explained that I believe that could be due to an error of translation. Presumably you believe that errors of translation were not possible.

No, no no, it doesn't work that way.
Claiming 'error in translation' is not a blank sheet that allows you to invent any scenario that comes to mind.
You are required to offer an example.

If you remember the issue of the man carrying a pipe or knife was suggested to be an error in translation. Several of us at the time looked up the word for knife in Hebrew (if I recall correctly?), and the word for knife sounded much like the word for pipe (or was it the other way around?).
Regardless, the argument had no substance without showing how close the words were in pronunciation, in order to justify the claim of 'error in translation'.
You have treated the 'error in translation' scenario as if it is a black hole that permits you to make any suggestion you feel like.
In what language does 'court' sound like 'doorway'?

It is fascinating - to me alone, it would seem - that placing a man at the entrance to the court, unifies the location of Pipeman and Parcelman, and thus suggests they were one and the same man.

Pipeman was never described as being at the entrance of any court.

Why would he light a pipe, if he were hiding?

It depends on the scenario, he could have been hiding if he was involved, or merely getting out of the breeze to light a pipe, if not involved.

[Wickerman]

Witness saw BS man "trying to pulled her into the street". Whats your point?

Dave's humor often requires some background knowledge.
You might remember we have two reports of what BS-man is accused of, in one he pushed Stride, in the other he pulled Stride.
The animal in the photo was known as - a Push me pull you, in the movie, if I recall correctly.

[Wickerman]

... after talking with Parcelman, Stride walks over to the gateway alone (after Eagle and Lave have gone) and Parcelman innocently walks south and leaves the scene before being spotted by Brown/Mortimer etc...

Packer saw Stride & Parcelman walk back over to the club before he shut up shop.

What we can be almost certain about is that...

Parcel man WASN'T BS man...

The police were quite certain BS-man was not Parcelman, as they published both descriptions.

[Lewis C]

FM: I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out...

So, 'just' could in fact be 15 minutes or more?

I agree that if you only consider that part of Fanny's statement, 12:45-12:55 would seem to be the best estimate for what 10 minute period she was standing at her door. However, her saying that she went to her door right after she thought she heard a policeman pass fits well with the idea that she went to her door right after PC Smith passed. However, 12:43 or 12:44 seems a bit late to be the estimate for when PC Smith passed.

[Herlock Sholmes]

‘Just’ means very little. Maybe she fell that it was only 6 or 7 minutes. I would refer us all back again to the research that Jeff posted which shows just how far people can be ‘out’ when estimating periods of time. Whether it seems ‘likely’ or ‘right’ to us as individuals it doesn’t really matter.

[Lewis C]

What's interesting about this photograph is that it provides some visual proof as to the relative proximity between the main club entrance onto Berner Street with the gateway into Dutfield's yard.

We are talking no more than 5 yards

Therefore, when Eagle tried the main entrance and found it to be locked, he was standing facing the club door practically next to the gateway itself.

We know from Eagle's double negative response to being asked if he saw anyone, that there were others in the street at the time he returned to the club circa 12.40am.

However; it would seem extremely unlikely for him to have tried the front entrance and then failed to notice a couple standing just 5 yards away from him in the gateway.

This then provides us with some degree of certainly that when Eagle tried the front door, found it locked, and then walked through the gateway into the yard to access the side door, that Stride was at that point NOT standing in the gateway AND not already laying deceased on the floor; as based on his physical trajectory from the front door, he should have tripped over her had she have already been there.

And so, if we take it back to Pc Smith's sighting sometime between 12.30am -12.35am as he walked down Berner Street and then saw a couple standing a few yards from the gateway on the opposite side of the road, it would indicate that Stride and Parcelman were standing on the East side of the street and were almost certainly standing in the same spot when Eagle arrived back in Berner Street and initially approached the front door of the club.

In other words, Stride did not move from the spot she was in when seen by PC Smith, until AFTER Eagle had walked through the gateway after he had initially found the front entrance to be locked.

I would say that either Stride wasn't standing in the gateway when Eagle returned to the club, or Eagle was BS man, with the former being the more likely of the two. Stride might have been in a different spot when Eagle returned than when PC Smith passed, but that different spot wasn't the gateway, unless Eagle was BS man.

[DJA]

‘Just’ means very little. Maybe she fell that it was only 6 or 7 minutes. I would refer us all back again to the research that Jeff posted which shows just how far people can be ‘out’ when estimating periods of time. Whether it seems ‘likely’ or ‘right’ to us as individuals it doesn’t really matter.

Just Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

[Lewis C]

‘Just’ means very little. Maybe she fell that it was only 6 or 7 minutes. I would refer us all back again to the research that Jeff posted which shows just how far people can be ‘out’ when estimating periods of time. Whether it seems ‘likely’ or ‘right’ to us as individuals it doesn’t really matter.

I agree Herlock, and I would add that the same is true of the other end of Fanny's vigil. We're told that she went to her door immediately after she heard a policeman pass. That sounds like it means one minute later, but it could have been more like 5 minutes later.

[The Rookie Detective]

I agree Herlock, and I would add that the same is true of the other end of Fanny's vigil. We're told that she went to her door immediately after she heard a policeman pass. That sounds like it means one minute later, but it could have been more like 5 minutes later.

When Mortimer states she had just come in and was preparing to go to bed, before hearing a commotion outside and going out etc... it seems likely that the "preparing to go to bed" (paraphrasing perhaps) COULD have entailed spending some time on said preparation.

In other words; she may have been speaking figuratively.

However, when she states she went to the door immediately after hearing the footsteps pass outside, this would seem to denote that there was very little time that had passed.

There is more eense of urgency just after hearing footsteps than there was for when she was preparing for bed.

On that basis, it would support the idea that Mortimer spent LESS than 4 minutes from when she heard the footsteps,, to when she went "immediately" to her door.

This is because the time frame for when she was subsequently preparing for bed; she doesn't use the same term of "Immediately."

In other words; Mortimer must have gone to her door LESS than 4 minutes AFTER she heard the footsteps pass by her door.

[Abby Normal]

As you know, a good murder theory requires a strong motive. In the case of this BS character, we don't have one. Nor do we have a convincing explanation for why the man with the pipe either flees or pursues. It would seem that at least one crucial piece of the picture is missing.

nothing is missing. schwartz witnessed the beginning of a murderous assault on stride, and based on the nights witness descriptions of the killer, the MO , victimology and time frame, the perpetrator was undoubtedly the ripper. its really just that simple.