Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[GBinOz]

I suspect the same, Schwartz might have had his back to what was taking place as he started to cross the street. Which is why he was unsure about who shouted what, to whom.

Hi Jon,

I agree. I think that after Schwartz crossed the road he turned to look back only in response to Stride's three "not very loud screams", by which time she was already on the ground. Hence the conflicting versions about whether she was being pulled from the yard or pushed into the yard, those versions being based on assumption. There is a great difference between an argument where Stride overbalances after pulling her arm free from an attempt to take her away from the yard, and an assault where she is forcibly pushed to the ground in the yard. The fact that Schwartz claimed the screams that attracted his attention to be not very loud suggests to me that the former was the case, but I don't believe the truth of this matter lies within Schwartz's purview.

Cheers, George

[DJA]

Just one point of trivia, why is 107 Christian St. on that post?
It must be a typo, 107 is a rowhouse, and not on a corner.
The bottom image does not appear to be the Nelson either - puzzling.

It is the Beehive public house,corner Christian and Fairclough.Might bee 101.
Refer post 729.

[DJA]

What's interesting about this photograph is that it provides some visual proof as to the relative proximity between the main club entrance onto Berner Street with the gateway into Dutfield's yard.

We are talking no more than 5 yards.

More like 12 inches.

Reckon Jack was watching from an upstairs window until BS man finally departed and Stride was back in the alley,as arranged.

He then slipped out the door.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don't know what to think about the extent of blood flow. We don't know exactly how much time passed between when Diemschutz entered the yard and when the blood flow was first observed (though we do have a general idea), and what I took from the discussion was that we don't know whether the surface was dry, muddy or wet, which would affect how quickly the blood would flow. Also, I don't know how much blood per minute to expect to leave her body.

Fair enough, but thinking probabilistically, I doubt the extent of observed blood flow is compatible with a killer being in the act of murder when Diemschitz' pony and cart becomes audible.

I agree that from the facts that you quoted, it would seem that Fanny closed her door later than 12:48, probably more like 12:55. But Fanny was also quoted as saying that she went to her door right after she heard what sounded like a policeman passing, and stayed there for 10 minutes, which would lead one to believe that she had closed up by 12:48, and maybe even a couple of minutes earlier. So the range of time that she could have been at her door should account for the fact that part of what she said is probably true, but it can't all be true, so what time she was at her door depends on which part is true.

FM: I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out...

So, 'just' could in fact be 15 minutes or more?

I would guess that Fanny's words refer to a row outside of the club, because she would be more likely to hear it if it were outside, and she likened the later commotion, which was outside, to the earlier commotion. I don't know if that has anything to do with the door being locked. In that neighborhood, having the door locked when it's that late would be a good precaution anyway.

A row outside the club could possibly indicate that intruders were involved. Interesting that 'the Hungarian' was, in the Star, referred to as an intruder. As it is believed by most that the first and second man in that story came from opposite ends of the street, one wonders what the second man supposed was being intruded on.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The report says "out of a doorway, a few doors off".
What has that to do with a passage nearly 150ft away?
It is neither a few doors off, nor even a doorway - the pub doorway in your case is over in Batty Street.

It was, literally, a few doors off. Crucially, it was 'open', at 12:45, unlike the Nelson.

It's interesting that people realise that at 12:45, the Nelson had long closed, yet they are not going to question their belief that a man came out of that doorway.

As for the entrance to the court not being a doorway, I've already explained that I believe that could be due to an error of translation. Presumably you believe that errors of translation were not possible.

It is fascinating - to me alone, it would seem - that placing a man at the entrance to the court, unifies the location of Pipeman and Parcelman, and thus suggests they were one and the same man.

FYI: the 'chase' is discussed here: https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...858#post409858

For a second man to step out of the doorway, seeing as how the premises was closed, might suggest he was hiding while watching what was taking place. Schwartz does say he followed BS-man coming down the street from Commercial Rd., so if that is true it doesn't suggest BS-man was working with Pipeman, as they were at opposite ends of the street.

Why would he light a pipe, if he were hiding?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Based on Eagle leaving and BS man assaulting Stride, this makes the time Stride moved from one side of the street to the other side, some time between 12.41am and 12.44am.

But that then requires Parcelman to have gone somewhere in that time frame because it seems that the main description of Parcelman and BS man are different enough to make it seem very unlikely they were the same man.

Can you explain why Stride moving across the street to the passageway, requires Parcelman to have gone somewhere?

So where did Parcelman go?

Initially, nowhere.

[FISHY1118]

More like 12 inches.

Reckon Jack was watching from an upstairs window until BS man finally departed and Stride was back in the alley,as arranged.

He then slipped out the door.

More like BS man cut strides throat and vanished into the night forever. Anyone who was in the club had nothing to do with her murder ,no one saw her being murdered, and way to much has been spectaculated and guessed as to all sorts of other scenarios in regards to strides death. Imho.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Agreed, but the press version appears to embellish Schwartz's story. They place a knife in the hand of a man whom, in the police report, was carrying a pipe, and the 'warning' is shouted by the man coming from the doorway, whereas in the police notes, it comes from BS-man.
Who knows what else they got wrong?

It's interesting that discrepancies between the quoted Fanny Mortimer and the "important statement" made by a "woman who lives two doors from the club", are regarded as necessarily being due to Fanny contradicting herself, whereas discrepancies between the press and police accounts of Schwartz are blamed on the press embellishing his story.

Why not suppose that the journalist responsible for the taking the "important statement" (who apparently didn't even get her name) made errors, and Schwartz, in talking to the press, contradicted what he had told the police? It would be no more arbitrary. One might argue that Schwartz's police account is the definitive account, and the press account the less reliable of the two, but by the same token, in the case of Fanny we have two press accounts.

In the Evening News interview, we initially read that...

Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot.

So, that's 3 doors down, not 2 doors as in the case of the "important statement" woman. The woman in the interview was heard chatting with neighbours. What are the chances that it was one of the neighbours, and not Fanny, who made the "important statement", and the journalist was mistaken as to which address she lived at? Does it not seem a little odd that of all the neighbours on the street, one of them was interviewed 3 times?

[DJA]

More like BS man cut strides throat and vanished into the night forever. Anyone who was in the club had nothing to do with her murder ,no one saw her being murdered, and way to much has been spectaculated and guessed as to all sorts of other scenarios in regards to strides death. Imho.

BS man pulled Stride out of the alley where she was murdered.

[DJA]

36 is 3 doors from the yard,2 doors from the club.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

More like BS man cut strides throat and vanished into the night forever. Anyone who was in the club had nothing to do with her murder ,no one saw her being murdered, and way to much has been spectaculated and guessed as to all sorts of other scenarios in regards to strides death. Imho.

Could you speculate on his motive?

[DJA]

[FISHY1118]

BS man pulled Stride out of the alley where she was murdered.

Witness saw BS man "trying to pulled her into the street". Whats your point?

[FISHY1118]

Could you speculate on his motive?

Nope , Don't know what he was thinking at the very time he was seen assaulting stride, then after cutting her throat.

But could be any number of human emotions take your pick,....

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Nope , Don't know what he was thinking at the very time he was seen assaulting stride, then after cutting her throat.

But could be any number of human emotions take your pick,....

As you know, a good murder theory requires a strong motive. In the case of this BS character, we don't have one. Nor do we have a convincing explanation for why the man with the pipe either flees or pursues. It would seem that at least one crucial piece of the picture is missing.