Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[New Waterloo]

Great discussion this. I need to explain what I mean by something is not quite right. Its hard finding the right words and not confuse people. Well and not confuse myself. What I suppose I mean is that is there another possibility that we are overlooking.

I am resisting suggesting a theory but I suppose at some point in time we have to so here are a couple of observations/ideas.

Firstly Brown. He lives at 35 Fairclough Street. I think this is fairly close to the junction with Berner Street. He goes to get his supper spends a few minutes doing that and returns home when he sees the couple. Now the idea. Is the couple he sees Spooner and his lady/girl friend who have just wandered a few yards for where they were standing (outside the pub further along Fairclough Street. We are only speaking of a short distance BUT when Spooner leaves his house to go and get his food he turns left he wouldn't necessarily look to his right to see Spooner and his girlfriend near the pub, but when they wander just a few yards towards the Board School he now notices them on his return home.

Brown then goes indoors and eats his food so clearly wouldn't see or hear anything which goes on in the street until he is alerted a few minutes later.

Now a piece of evidence that probably doesn't mean anything but it could.

When Wess gives his evidence at the Inquest he says that he left the club at 1215am by the front door. He actually states (regarding when the bulk of people left the club earlier);

From ninety to 100 persons attended the discussion, which terminated soon after half-past eleven, when the bulk of the members left, using the street door, the most convenient exit.

Why then when Eagle returns at 1240am is the convenient exit door now locked.

This I think is the important bit I think.

If it was a normal night at the club which before the body of Stride is discovered then people would at that time of night be leaving to go home and use the most convenient exit. Wouldn't it be sensible to leave the door unlocked to aid there exit.

People lock doors for a reason. Usually to keep people out not keep people in.

Who made the decision to lock the door and why? Eagle thought it would be open as he went to it.

I suggest that possibly an 'incident' occurred resulting in Strides death. The disturbance involving BSM. I cant see why even if he was drunk that he would just walk up have a push and pull with Stride for no reason

I agree with Herlock I dont think there was any conspiracy or complex making up of stories but I do believe several people who maybe didn't want to engage with the police just didn't say anything. Some of these people would have experienced terrible treatment by the police in the countries they came from and some of these people did have anarchist views etc.

Was the door locked to keep people out? Although thinking about it they would have locked the gates as well so maybe forget all of this. Anyway I post it. You never know may be a small piece of a jigsaw

NW

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Perhaps Abberline came to believe that Schwartz hadn’t seen the killer? It’s interesting that he talks about age in that quote. Why might a 35-40 year old killer have been an issue? Could it have been that it was because George Chapman was only 23 at the time of the murders and he had come to suspect that Chapman was the ripper? Maybe he came to dismiss the man that Schwartz saw because he didn’t match a description of Chapman.

You mean, Abberline might have suspected Chapman to the point that he was biased against any evidence that didn't fit? Quite possible.

It doesn’t concern me at all. I’m not suggesting that everyone was reluctant to have dealings with the police but some people certainly were. We can’t assume that someone didn’t exist just because he didn’t come forward. Mistrust of the police exists today and goes back years.

Assuming that Pipeman didn't exist because he was seemingly never identified, would be an unjustified leap. On the other hand, we cannot assume he was so mistrusting of the police that he avoided making a statement. Another possibility is that he wasn't just an accidental onlooker. What was he doing just prior to being spotted by Schwartz? Just contemplating lighting up?

[The Rookie Detective]

Great discussion this. I need to explain what I mean by something is not quite right. Its hard finding the right words and not confuse people. Well and not confuse myself. What I suppose I mean is that is there another possibility that we are overlooking.

I am resisting suggesting a theory but I suppose at some point in time we have to so here are a couple of observations/ideas.

Firstly Brown. He lives at 35 Fairclough Street. I think this is fairly close to the junction with Berner Street. He goes to get his supper spends a few minutes doing that and returns home when he sees the couple. Now the idea. Is the couple he sees Spooner and his lady/girl friend who have just wandered a few yards for where they were standing (outside the pub further along Fairclough Street. We are only speaking of a short distance BUT when Spooner leaves his house to go and get his food he turns left he wouldn't necessarily look to his right to see Spooner and his girlfriend near the pub, but when they wander just a few yards towards the Board School he now notices them on his return home.

Brown then goes indoors and eats his food so clearly wouldn't see or hear anything which goes on in the street until he is alerted a few minutes later.

Now a piece of evidence that probably doesn't mean anything but it could.

When Wess gives his evidence at the Inquest he says that he left the club at 1215am by the front door. He actually states (regarding when the bulk of people left the club earlier);

From ninety to 100 persons attended the discussion, which terminated soon after half-past eleven, when the bulk of the members left, using the street door, the most convenient exit.

Why then when Eagle returns at 1240am is the convenient exit door now locked.

This I think is the important bit I think.

If it was a normal night at the club which before the body of Stride is discovered then people would at that time of night be leaving to go home and use the most convenient exit. Wouldn't it be sensible to leave the door unlocked to aid there exit.

People lock doors for a reason. Usually to keep people out not keep people in.

Who made the decision to lock the door and why? Eagle thought it would be open as he went to it.

I suggest that possibly an 'incident' occurred resulting in Strides death. The disturbance involving BSM. I cant see why even if he was drunk that he would just walk up have a push and pull with Stride for no reason

I agree with Herlock I dont think there was any conspiracy or complex making up of stories but I do believe several people who maybe didn't want to engage with the police just didn't say anything. Some of these people would have experienced terrible treatment by the police in the countries they came from and some of these people did have anarchist views etc.

Was the door locked to keep people out? Although thinking about it they would have locked the gates as well so maybe forget all of this. Anyway I post it. You never know may be a small piece of a jigsaw

NW

I think you make a very valid point regarding the locked street facing entrance/exit.

There may be a few reasons for this

Perhaps the main entrance/exit had to be locked by 12.30am as per closing times?
The effect of which, being that after 12.30am the club operated a "lock in" system whereby the club was officially closed to the public and only the members were permitted to remain within.

The idea that Eagle returned around 12.40am and tried the front entrance, would support the idea that the club was 'officially' closed after 12.30am and the only access was via the private side door that would presumably have only been known to the members themselves.

When PC Smith walked past sometime between 12.30am-12.35am the club entrance would have just closed/been locked.
Perhaps part of Smith's role was to ensure that the club had indeed closed and the time he walked past the club perhaps corresponds to that.

There is no evidence that Stride was ever inside the club, and so the question remains; what was she doing there?

The sighting of her outside the Bricklayers Arms around 11pm implies that she was on a date of some kind.

Her choice of attire would also suggest she was not soliciting.

In terms of behavior; the couple seen by Marshall around 11.45am; fits closest to Stride and her male companion.

If Bricklayers Arm man and Marshall's man fit in terms of their respective physical description; then it would seem probably that Stride was first seen in Berner Street by Marshall.

The issue is that they were heading south when observed by Marshall.

But that doesn't mean they didn't retrace their steps at some point after Marshall had gone back inside.

Interestingly; at the corner of Berner St and Ellen St was a chemist that would have almost certainly sold Cachou

The shop was almost opposite 22 Ellen Street

I think a good way forward may be to compare the descriptions of Marshall's man with that of Parcelman, Bs man and the man seen by Brown.


I think Marshall's man is generally dismissed as being the killer, because he and the woman he was with (seen by Marshall) were seen walking away from the murder site.

But I would suggest that after Marshall went indoors, the same couple may have walked back up Berner Street after having purchased Cachou from the corner shop virtually opposite the address that Schwartz gave.


But, going back to the locked main entrance of the club.

Why didn't Eagle know it would have been already locked by the time he arrived back in Berner Street?

The other question is; did the real killer witness Eagle try the front entrance and observe it was locked?

The flip side of that could be that the killer had assumed that all the club members would exit through the main entrance and didn't realise the side door could be used.

Had the killer planned to mutilate Stride in the dark after cutting her throat, believing he would not be disturbed, but was then interrupted by some movement at the side door?

Lots to ponder

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes but he was estimating the time that he first passed (12.30 or 12.35) Why would he be confident of the time when he next passed? Maybe he said ‘around’ but it was missed in the transcript? Or maybe he thought that saying 1.00 was enough and that a very few minutes before or after was neither here nor there?

Presumably he was confident because it was part of his job to be cognizant of the time, based on trusted clocks. The essential point though, is that Smith and Diemschitz obviously cannot both be at the top of Berner St at 1am. We have to choose between the two or split the difference. If we go with the reasoning in Smith's Beat, the PC is not arriving back at Berner St until well after 1am. Owning to his 25–30-minute beat, he would previously have been in Berner St several minutes later than 12:35. So, more or less in line with Fanny Mortimer supposedly hearing his plod, shortly before a quarter to one.

The issue comes when people refer to Smith being in Berner St at around 12:35, while continuing to assume a ~1am discovery time. That cannot be.

We know that he arrived at the yard after Lamb. We know that we can’t rely on clocks and watches being in synch. We are talking a very few minutes here. It’s really not important. Louis found the body at approx 1.00. Lamb arrived back with Eagle at approx 1.05. Smith arrived just after.

I'm not relying on clocks on watches being in sync, I'm relying on there being 30 minutes in each half-hour.

If we looked down on events with an accurate clock and when Louis passed his 1.00 clock our clock said 12.55. Then we have Lamb arriving back with Eagle at around 1.00 and then Smith arriving at 1.01.

That one-minute interval is not possible, whatever the time was, but this has been argued over previously. Suppose though that our clock did say 12:55 when Louis arrived. At what time would we see Leon Goldstein?

[Wickerman]

... For what it's worth, that is just what she supposed had occurred...

A man touched her face and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I didn't observe anyone entering the gates.

Good point.
Not that Mortimer is a choice witness, but it makes more sense to me that it did happen while she was at her door, my guess is between 12:45-12:55 on the Mortimer Clock.

Perhaps we are looking at a situation in which both murderer and victim have entered the yard several minutes prior to the murder,.............. the murderer must have been carrying or had ready access to a formidable knife.

Bingo!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Great discussion this. I need to explain what I mean by something is not quite right. Its hard finding the right words and not confuse people. Well and not confuse myself. What I suppose I mean is that is there another possibility that we are overlooking.

I am resisting suggesting a theory but I suppose at some point in time we have to so here are a couple of observations/ideas.

Firstly Brown. He lives at 35 Fairclough Street. I think this is fairly close to the junction with Berner Street. He goes to get his supper spends a few minutes doing that and returns home when he sees the couple. Now the idea. Is the couple he sees Spooner and his lady/girl friend who have just wandered a few yards for where they were standing (outside the pub further along Fairclough Street. We are only speaking of a short distance BUT when Spooner (typo - should be Brown) leaves his house to go and get his food he turns left he wouldn't necessarily look to his right to see Spooner and his girlfriend near the pub, but when they wander just a few yards towards the Board School he now notices them on his return home.

Brown then goes indoors and eats his food so clearly wouldn't see or hear anything which goes on in the street until he is alerted a few minutes later.


NW

Hi NW,

The problem is that Spooner himself said:

“We had left a public- house in Commercial-road at closing time, midnight, and walked quietly to the point named. We stood outside the Beehive about twenty-five minutes, when two Jews came running along..”

He’s very specific in that they arrived at the Beehive and stood there until Diemschitz and Kozebrodski passed in search of a Constable.

But when Brown said:

“I saw a man and woman standing at the corner of the Board School. I was in the road just by the kerb, and they were near the wall.”

What I certainly can’t explain with certainty is that, when talking about Spooner, Diemschitz said:

“A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me.”

The likeliest explanation I’d suggest would be that in the panic of the situation Diemschitz just mistook Christian Street for Grove Street.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Now a piece of evidence that probably doesn't mean anything but it could.

When Wess gives his evidence at the Inquest he says that he left the club at 1215am by the front door. He actually states (regarding when the bulk of people left the club earlier);

From ninety to 100 persons attended the discussion, which terminated soon after half-past eleven, when the bulk of the members left, using the street door, the most convenient exit.

Why then when Eagle returns at 1240am is the convenient exit door now locked.

This I think is the important bit I think.

If it was a normal night at the club which before the body of Stride is discovered then people would at that time of night be leaving to go home and use the most convenient exit. Wouldn't it be sensible to leave the door unlocked to aid there exit.

People lock doors for a reason. Usually to keep people out not keep people in.

Who made the decision to lock the door and why? Eagle thought it would be open as he went to it.

I suggest that possibly an 'incident' occurred resulting in Strides death. The disturbance involving BSM. I cant see why even if he was drunk that he would just walk up have a push and pull with Stride for no reason

I agree with Herlock I dont think there was any conspiracy or complex making up of stories but I do believe several people who maybe didn't want to engage with the police just didn't say anything. Some of these people would have experienced terrible treatment by the police in the countries they came from and some of these people did have anarchist views etc.

Was the door locked to keep people out? Although thinking about it they would have locked the gates as well so maybe forget all of this. Anyway I post it. You never know may be a small piece of a jigsaw

NW

I think it likely that the door was locked to prevent people dropping in hoping to get a drink. Perhaps the door was locked at roughly the same time every night. Around 12.30. When Eagle returns he can’t be sure of the exact time and he knows that the door doesn’t get locked at exactly the same time every night so he gives it a try. It was locked to he used the side entrance.

[Wickerman]

Blackwell, surely a more reliable opinion:

“The clothes were not wet with rain.”

There must be a reason why two witnesses observe the opposite condition of the clothes.

As it doesn't require an IQ test to figure out if clothing is wet or not, and I prefer to rule out lying, then I think the reason is because Blackwell had his hands inside her clothing as part of his duties (bodice, upper dress, linen undergarment, etc.) so could say her clothing was not wet all the way through - the underlayers seemingly dry.
As opposed to Kozebrodski who if anything will have touched her outer clothing (jacket) which was wet due to the light drizzle, but would have no cause to place his hand inside her clothing.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Presumably he was confident because it was part of his job to be cognizant of the time, based on trusted clocks. The essential point though, is that Smith and Diemschitz obviously cannot both be at the top of Berner St at 1am. We have to choose between the two or split the difference. If we go with the reasoning in Smith's Beat, the PC is not arriving back at Berner St until well after 1am. Owning to his 25–30-minute beat, he would previously have been in Berner St several minutes later than 12:35. So, more or less in line with Fanny Mortimer supposedly hearing his plod, shortly before a quarter to one.

There is no such thing as a trusted clock as far as we are concerned. Could Smith and Diemschitz both be at the top of Berner Street at 1.00 by they’re own understanding of what the time was? Absolutely.

The issue comes when people refer to Smith being in Berner St at around 12:35, while continuing to assume a ~1am discovery time. That cannot be.

It can be.

I'm not relying on clocks on watches being in sync, I'm relying on there being 30 minutes in each half-hour.

It doesn’t matter. Diemschitz finds the body. Lamb and Eagle return. Then Smith did. That’s what happened. Is there any doubt. No.

That one-minute interval is not possible, whatever the time was, but this has been argued over previously. Suppose though that our clock did say 12:55 when Louis arrived. At what time would we see Leon Goldstein?

It is possible. There is no mystery apart from the ones that you keep inventing. Why can’t we just let this go?

Diemschitz found the body at 1.00 according to his timing.
Lamb and Eagle would have returned around 5 minutes or so later.
Smith returned just after him.
Spooner arrived a couple of minutes or so after 1.00.
Johnson arrived at around 1.10
Blackwell arrived at around 1.16.
The incident accorded at some point around half way between 12.30 and 1.00 - only BSMan and Pipeman saw it because only they were in the street at the time.
Eagle returned at a time when Fanny was indoors.
Goldstein passed just before she went back indoors.

”Never in the field of true crime has so much time been wasted over something so simple.”

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Who made the decision to lock the door and why? Eagle thought it would be open as he went to it.

As the passageway was extremely dark, there must have been good reason to lock the front door. Eagle's attempt to open the door suggests that it being locked at that hour was a recent change. Perhaps there had been recent trouble with unwanted 'guests'.

It is possible that Elizabeth Stride witnessed Morris Eagle try the front door, and then disappear up the passageway. Not long after she herself is in the passageway. I can't help but think these events are related.

[Wickerman]

Firstly Brown. He lives at 35 Fairclough Street. I think this is fairly close to the junction with Berner Street. He goes to get his supper spends a few minutes doing that and returns home when he sees the couple. Now the idea. Is the couple he sees Spooner and his lady/girl friend who have just wandered a few yards for where they were standing (outside the pub further along Fairclough Street. We are only speaking of a short distance BUT when Spooner leaves his house to go and get his food he turns left he wouldn't necessarily look to his right to see Spooner and his girlfriend near the pub, but when they wander just a few yards towards the Board School he now notices them on his return home....

Spooner does not mention his lady friend after being outside the Beehive in Christian St., Spooner was with Diemschutz & Kozebrodski by the time he reached Berner St., so we are looking at three men (plus 1 female?) rounding the corner from Fairclough into Berner St.
Not a couple standing on the corner.

From ninety to 100 persons attended the discussion, which terminated soon after half-past eleven, when the bulk of the members left, using the street door, the most convenient exit.

Why then when Eagle returns at 1240am is the convenient exit door now locked.

...Who made the decision to lock the door and why? Eagle thought it would be open as he went to it.

It is customary to close the street door when the premises is 'closed', but keep the side door open for some regulars to come & go as they please.
My local did the exact same thing when I was a teenager, but pubs must comply with municipal closing times, so they must close & lock the street door, so they keep the side door unlocked for a handful of us who stayed behind after closing.

A club can close the premises whenever they choose to, but a pub must observe regular closing times, which on this night was 12:00 midnight.

As Wess pointed out, most of the members left soon after 11:30 pm, so someone, acting for Diemschutz, decided to lock up the front door when the majority had left - nothing particularly suspicious in that.

[Wickerman]

... What was he doing just prior to being spotted by Schwartz? Just contemplating lighting up?

Standing in the doorway to light his pipe, a common sight, it can be hard to light a pipe if there is a breeze.

[Wickerman]

....

The likeliest explanation I’d suggest would be that in the panic of the situation Diemschitz just mistook Christian Street for Grove Street.

And presumably Diemschutz could read English?
So, Schwartz who couldn't read English mistaking Batty St. for Berner St. may not be so 'off the wall' as it first sounds?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

There is no mystery apart from the ones that you keep inventing.

Therefore, you should have no problem providing an approximate time for Goldstein, based on your 12:55 Diemschitz arrival hypothetical.

How about I do it for you. Let's say 6 to 7 minutes prior to 12:55, Mortimer sees Goldstein. So just before 12:50, she sees a man enter Berner St from Commercial Rd, walk down the street on her side, crossing over in the vicinity of the club, and then pass out of her sight as he rounds the board school corner into Fairclough St, proceeding on to his residence in Christian St, down near one of the railway arches. Now the mystery is, why didn't she see Israel Schwartz at a similar time, enter Berner St from Commercial Rd, walk down on her side until crossing over in the vicinity of the club, and then pass out of her sight when turning into Fairclough St, before running to the railway arch?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Standing in the doorway to light his pipe, a common sight, it can be hard to light a pipe if there is a breeze.

What is the location of this man in the police report? The opposite side of the street to the man with the woman who shouts 'Lipski'. Therefore, to what doorway do you refer?