Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[Wickerman]

lol! but which one is also short/stout and has a dark mustache? only one-first pic second from right. thats the ripper! oh wait he only has one arm! : )

gosh i missed you wicky!

You certainly pinned it down Abby, can we see the next 50,000 potential suspects?

Casebook hasn't been the same without you Abs.

[The Rookie Detective]

lets cut all the speculation and just look at the evidence from what the pertinent witnesses described: marshall, pc smith, schwartz, lawende and the anon church street sighting all pretty much describe the same suspect. a stout/shortish man somewhat respectably dressed with a mustache and wearing a peaked cap -both with stride and eddowes. the fact that this man was with stride for a longer period of time suggests she was not actively soliciting and probably led to his frustration and anger and the un ripper like attack in the street in front of witnesses. his fantasy sig of post mortem mutilation not fulfilled he then continued his search and got it with eddowes.

packer, mortimer and brown are all useless witnesses forget them. waste of time. packer was a liar, mortimer a useless busybody and brown saw a different couple.

Stride had just broken up with her boyfriend and seems was out looking for a new man. she was all dolled up and not jumping into the alley with the first client she could find. she met the ripper who had other plans, and after spending considerable time and probably some money on her, he got fed up with her not going to a secluded place, probably after one last attempt after pc smith passed, and he left her briefly then returned in anger (where schwartz saw him returning) and cut her throat and bolted to find more acquiescing victim.

all this talk of packer, phantom rippers etc. is an empty hole. stick with the evidence. it was peaked cap man as abberline said- " the man and his peaked cap he is said to have worn quite tallies with the descriptions i got of him. "

Now take out Schwartz from the mix and you may be on to something.


If we look at the actual "evidence"

We are left with...


Pc Smith
Parcelman
Eagle
Lave
Goldstein
Diemschitz

These are the ONLY individuals who we can confirm were physically within 20 yards of the murder site at some point between 12.30 and 1am.

That leaves 6 options for the murderer

in terms of "proof" of who walked past Stride, none of the following list can be corroborated as being within 20 yards of the murder site.

Brown
Mortimer
The other couple
Schwartz
BS man
Pipeman
"No, not tonight man"
Marshall's couple
Packer

Of course, if we include Schwartz, then we can be almost certain it was Bs man who cut her throat, rule out Parcelman and also forget about the idea of Stride having been a Ripper victim.

That's what the evidence, circumstance and statistical probability tells us.


RD


P.S.
Unless Schwartz was the killer himself and was frustrated he didn't have time to mutilate Stride, and subsequently went to the police incognito and tried to pin the blame on a drunken BS Man.

I am half joking of course.

[The Rookie Detective]

I do have plans for Schwartz btw


A potential revelation.


Another reason why he said he was there.


But I'm working on it


A hypothesis that may just be significant


Watch this space in earnest.




RD

[c.d.]

haha! forget it cd. its Casebooktown. and thanks for the welcome back. appreciated

You are welcome. Although the Chinatown reference was meant as a joke I think it is also pertinent. No one has been able to come up with a scenario where all the pieces of the puzzle fit.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Of course, if we include Schwartz, then we can be almost certain it was Bs man who cut her throat, rule out Parcelman and also forget about the idea of Stride having been a Ripper victim.

That seems like quite a leap there, R.D.

c.d.

[The Rookie Detective]

Of course, if we include Schwartz, then we can be almost certain it was Bs man who cut her throat, rule out Parcelman and also forget about the idea of Stride having been a Ripper victim.

That seems like quite a leap there, R.D.

c.d.

It certainly is.


That's why I discount Schwartz entirely.


I don't believe Bs man killed Stride; not because I don't think he was the Ripper, but because he didn't exist in the first place.

Schwartz existed, but that wasn't his real name.

His intentions were unclear, but perhaps he was trying to make a point and raise awareness

[Sunny Delight]

We're not inventing another man, when that man is attested to have been present before Schwartz came on the scene.
What you have is no evidence that this other man left the scene.

Those who choose to believe Schwartz, will realize he makes no mention of a couple standing on the corner (seen by James Brown at 12:45, and by Mortimer), so those same theorists are compelled to accept other people were present that Schwartz did not mention.
Which in turn removes the criticism that Parcel-man cannot have been there because Schwartz doesn't mention him.
You can't have it both ways.

We do have evidence that Parcel Man left the scene because he was not seen with Stride 10 minutes later according to Schwartz. We don't have co-orboration of that evidence but it is incorrect to say we don't have evidence of him not being there.

In relation to Mortimer and in my opinion Brown's couple, they in my estimation arrived at the Board School after Schwartz had witnessed the attack. Brown had seen them coming back from getting supper so he had not seen them or had not noticed them as he went to get supper. He was also estimating his time, estimating not based on anything really so his time is problematic.

[Sunny Delight]

But we can't dismiss the attack on Stride as something innocuous if she was spun around and thrown to the ground.

But somehow the cachous, which were just wrapped in tissue, managed to survive this "violent" attack. And if pulled to where her body was found the cachous survived that as well and without tearing her clothing. Possible? Certainly. But seems unlikely to me.

By the way, on a personal note, I took a hard fall a couple weeks ago. I won't go into details but major stupidity combined with klutziness. Got a nice little souvenir of the incident in the palm of my hands as I extended both my hands in a natural reaction attempting to break my fall.

c.d.

Sorry to hear about your fall. Of course the problem is with anecdotes that we can't replicate the BS man, Stride struggle or attack. Even if we were to have two people try to replicate it, it would be impossible. Stride did have bruising on her shoulders- found during the post mortem, consistent with what Schwartz described.

I think a lot of the time we look at things like the cachous and let's be honest, it is impossible to say how they ended up in her hands despite her death. Almost every conceivable scenario leaves up perplexed with how that happened. But it did.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I only feel confident in one thing. Absolutely nothing mysterious, underhand or conspiratorial occurred in Berner Street. No one pretended to be there. No one pretended to be anyone that they weren’t. I’m as convinced as I can be that this murder occurred on the spur of the moment..in anger. A man killed Stride and the only people that might have seen the killer were Schwartz and Pipeman who I have no doubt existed. No one else saw the incident because no one else was in the street at the time.

There are only four questions for me because everything else can be by explained using common sense and by leaving aside the Alex Jones stuff:

1. Did BSMan kill Stride?
2. Was BSMan the ripper?
3. If he didn’t, who did?
4. And was our unknown killer the ripper?

[Sunny Delight]

I only feel confident in one thing. Absolutely nothing mysterious, underhand or conspiratorial occurred in Berner Street. No one pretended to be there. No one pretended to be anyone that they weren’t. I’m as convinced as I can be that this murder occurred on the spur of the moment..in anger. A man killed Stride and the only people that might have seen the killer were Schwartz and Pipeman who I have no doubt existed. No one else saw the incident because no one else was in the street at the time.

There are only four questions for me because everything else can be by explained using common sense and by leaving aside the Alex Jones stuff:

1. Did BSMan kill Stride?
2. Was BSMan the ripper?
3. If he didn’t, who did?
4. And was our unknown killer the ripper?

136 years after the events all we can really offer is our own opinion on something which we don't know the full facts of, much of the documentation taken by the Police has not survived, and Press Reports are sometimes misleading.

1) I think BS man killed Stride.

2) I think BS man was the Ripper.

3) N/A

4) N/A

My own opinion is that Schwartz was the most important witness in the whole case- that we know of- and he encountered the beginnings of a Ripper attack.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

My own opinion is that Schwartz was the most important witness in the whole case- that we know of- and he encountered the beginnings of a Ripper attack.

Strange then, that we never hear of Schwartz beyond 1888, and we never hear from Pipeman at all.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don’t find it at all surprising. Why would we hear from him unless he’d done something newsworthy? Did anyone hear from Lawende in public after the murders, or Hutchinson or Cadosch or Robert Paul? As far as Pipeman is concerned his desire to keep himself out of it would have been entirely understandable.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

One hand giveth and the other hand taketh away.

But now you have to explain why the B.S. man would go on to kill Stride after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man.

c.d.

Irish Times: A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up. It was at once apparent that the woman was dead. The body was still warm, and the clothes enveloping it were wet from the recent rain, but the heart had ceased to beat, and the stream of blood in the gutter terminating in a hideous pool near the club door showed but too plainly what had happened.

A stream of blood all the way to the door implies the murder did not occur any time near to Diemschitz arrival - the murderer is long gone. On the other hand, you are right that BS Man as killer makes little sense. Hence the doubts about Schwartz.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don’t find it at all surprising. Why would we hear from him unless he’d done something newsworthy? Did anyone hear from Lawende in public after the murders, or Hutchinson or Cadosch or Robert Paul? As far as Pipeman is concerned his desire to keep himself out of it would have been entirely understandable.

No memoir or surviving post-88 police document makes reference to Schwartz. Your understanding of Pipeman ignores the police door-to-door search, and the contrast with Schwartz himself, who went to the police and the press. Why do you suppose a foreigner with little English would come forward, but not a local? I can suggest two possibilities:

* Pipeman didn't exist
* Pipeman was the man seen with Stride by Smith, who hung around while she entered the passageway

[NotBlamedForNothing]

We do have evidence that Parcel Man left the scene because he was not seen with Stride 10 minutes later according to Schwartz. We don't have co-orboration of that evidence but it is incorrect to say we don't have evidence of him not being there.

In relation to Mortimer and in my opinion Brown's couple, they in my estimation arrived at the Board School after Schwartz had witnessed the attack. Brown had seen them coming back from getting supper so he had not seen them or had not noticed them as he went to get supper. He was also estimating his time, estimating not based on anything really so his time is problematic.

Your "10 minutes later according to Schwartz" is problematic, aside from not mentioning that Schwartz was estimating time also.

Smith: It takes me from 25 minutes to half an hour to go round my beat. I was last in Berner-street about half-past 12 or 12:35. At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round. I saw a crowd of people outside the gates of No. 40. I did not hear any cries of "Police."

As you implicitly place Smith last in Berner St at 12:35, you must also accept that he is back at Berner St by 1am. This would necessarily push all events back in time. The discovery could not be later than 12:55. Fanny would be locking up sometime prior to that and witnessing Goldstein prior to that. She would then be at her doorstep as of about 12:40. When then, do you suppose the events described by Schwartz occurred, having not been witnessed by Eagle or Lave?

On the other hand, a 1am discovery time pushes Smith forward in time to at least 12:40. The young couple "had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises".