Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Welcome back, Abby.

"Peaked-cap man" Why it is almost as if you never left.

c.d.

Are you suggesting that Abby has mentioned ‘Peaked Cap Man’ once or twice in the past c.d.?

[Sunny Delight]

Two violent encounters on the same woman; at the same location, within 10 minutes must be seen as very unlikely- although of course not impossible.

This is it in a nutshell. Except how do you know that what Schwartz saw was "violent?" What was the cause? Who was the instigator? What were the intentions of the B.S. man? Or are you seeing it in light of what eventually happened to her?

c.d.

Well Schwartz describes a woman being spun around and thrown to the ground. That gives an indication of the force used. We could argue that Schwartz was maybe wrong and that in the struggle Stride slipped, but Schwartz is fairly consistent on this point- she was thrown to the ground. There is a degree of force used. Does that mean we can assume BS man is a killer. No. But we can't dismiss the attack on Stride as something innocuous if she was spun around and thrown to the ground.

As for what was the cause of the attack, who instigated it and what BS man's intentions were we cannot answer. We can only play out scenarios. Scenarios that still end with Elizabeth Stride being spun around and thrown to the ground- then being found dead at almost the exact same spot around 15 minutes later.

[c.d.]

Are you suggesting that Abby has mentioned ‘Peaked Cap Man’ once or twice in the past c.d.?

Well, Herlock, let me put it this way -- if they made a remake of Citizen Kane starring Abby instead of Orson Welles, instead of a sled in the final scene and the word Rosebud it would be a cap and the words peaked cap man.

c.d.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Some excellent points there, great post!

Good to see you back NBFN

Thanks Chris.

Had Pipeman (assuming his existence) been the innocent bystander he appears to be, he probably should have been found by the police, or come forward to report what he had witnessed, of his own volition. Why didn't he? The Pipeman = Parcelman theory might explain - he didn't want to admit he was with the victim at the crime scene.

The theory might also explain why Pipeman leaves the scene, possibly to pursue Schwartz. He was alerted to something having occurred to Elizabeth. It had nothing to do with being frightened by the broad-shouldered man, whose existence is dubious. Remember what Wess told the Echo - a man pursued the man believed to be the murderer, the pursuing man's name was related to Wess, which he forgot, but it was known that he was not a club member. How could Wess possibly have learnt this? Did Pipeman have some relationship to some members of the club?

[DJA]

Pipeman was located.Prolly the bottleshop owner having a knock off smoke.

[DJA]

Two of Jane Coram's excellent depictions.

[Wickerman]

...Remember what Wess told the Echo - a man pursued the man believed to be the murderer, the pursuing man's name was related to Wess, which he forgot, but it was known that he was not a club member. How could Wess possibly have learnt this?...

Wess must have been told about the two running men by someone who was in the yard when Diemshutz returned with Spooner.
That person saw Diemshutz & Spooner (who was not a club member) return, so naturally assumed they were the same two who had left, but that was not correct.
Diemshutz left with Kozebrodski, the two of them brought Spooner back but Kozebrodski did not enter the yard, he kept running up Berner St. and found Eagle in Commercial Rd.

The chase story told be Wess had nothing to do with Schwartz.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Pipeman was located.Prolly the bottleshop owner having a knock off smoke.

The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road 'Lipski' ...

Hampshire Court was on the opposite side of the street, The Nelson was on the same side.

[c.d.]

But we can't dismiss the attack on Stride as something innocuous if she was spun around and thrown to the ground.

But somehow the cachous, which were just wrapped in tissue, managed to survive this "violent" attack. And if pulled to where her body was found the cachous survived that as well and without tearing her clothing. Possible? Certainly. But seems unlikely to me.

By the way, on a personal note, I took a hard fall a couple weeks ago. I won't go into details but major stupidity combined with klutziness. Got a nice little souvenir of the incident in the palm of my hands as I extended both my hands in a natural reaction attempting to break my fall.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Good points, Michael.
Of course, we have to allow for the possibility that Schwartz was mistaken or lying but we just can`t take him out of the equation to make things fit. That would be wrong as we know Schwartz`s statement fits perfectly with all the activity on Berner Street.

Regarding his timing of 12.45. There was that clock in the window of Harris`s Tobacco shop at the top of Berner Street.

It seems those who reject Schwartz argue that his story does not fit.
As some credit James Brown with seeing Stride on the corner with a man at 12:45, Schwarts can't have seen her in the gateway at the same time.
Personally I don't think Brown saw Stride, we know another young couple were standing on the corner, referenced by Mortimer.

The police must have believe Schwartz, if only initially, as they gave details of two suspects for publication in the press; BS-man & Parcel-man.
So we shouldn't dismiss Schwartz, but it isn't easy fitting him in the sequence when no other witness mentions seeing any of the three men in Schwartz's story, himself, Pipeman & BS-man.
I can't deny that feeling something is wrong.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Wess must have been told about the two running men by someone who was in the yard when Diemshutz returned with Spooner.
That person saw Diemshutz & Spooner (who was not a club member) return, so naturally assumed they were the same two who had left, but that was not correct.
Diemshutz left with Kozebrodski, the two of them brought Spooner back but Kozebrodski did not enter the yard, he kept running up Berner St. and found Eagle in Commercial Rd.

The chase story told be Wess had nothing to do with Schwartz.

Schwartz escaped to the railway arch at about 12:45. Spooner 'escaped' into Dutfield's Yard at about 1:05, after stopping his 'pursuers' to ask them what the matter was.

Funny how The Worker's Friend supposed the murder had occurred at about 12:45. Someone(s) knew more than we are led to believe.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

But somehow the cachous, which were just wrapped in tissue, managed to survive this "violent" attack. And if pulled to where her body was found the cachous survived that as well and without tearing her clothing. Possible? Certainly. But seems unlikely to me.

The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway & the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly.

That describes a violent attack. if you don't believe there was a violent attack, it follows that you do not believe Schwartz's story, or at least that element of it.

[FISHY1118]

There is no evidence that exists that Schwartz either lied or was mistaken about the testimony he gave in regards to the assault on liz stride. End of discussion.

Those who wish to try and prove otherwise simply do so as opinion and speculation only , nothing more.

[New Waterloo]

I agree with Fishy and others. Schwarz existed and unless we can prove him wrong witnessed an assault on Stride. The idea that he went to the police and made the whole thing up is surely nonsense. He could have misinterpreted what he saw he may have embellished what he saw but he was witness to an assault in Berner Street. I still think we are trying to fit events into theories rather than looking at the eye witness evidence. Start afresh and look again. I agree something is not right here.

NW

[The Rookie Detective]

I am enjoying this discussion; we have some excellent points from all sides of the fence.

What I would say is that those who believe Schwartz, therefore believe that BS Man existed.

I think we can all agree on that particular point.

And so the question that arises from the belief that Bs man assaulted Stride, is this...

Was Bs man the man who then murdered Stride?

I ask this because there is equally NO evidence that another man came along and cut her throat between the time Schwartz claimed Bs Man attacked her circa 12.45am, to the point when she was found dead by Diemschitz circa 1am.

We quite rightly talk about "proof"

There is no proof that Schwartz lied for example.

But that also applies to the idea that there's also no proof that anyone was with Stride after she was seen being thrown to the ground by Bs man.

Therefore, I then ask this; does the belief that Bs man assaulted Stride then support the idea that he was her killer?

And If BS man was her killer, then another point occurs that I also believe we can all agree with...

Bs man was NOT the Ripper.


And so does the belief in Schwartz then by proxy cast considerable doubt that Stride was a Ripper victim?

If not, then all that's left is the unlikely possibility that Stirde was assaulted by Bs Man and then assaulted again by another man who then cut her throat.

One unlucky lady

Not forgetting that the "evidence" is that Bs man was the last person seen with Stride before she was murdered.

inventing another man arriving after Bs man who then comes along and kills her, is equally as effective as removing Schwartz's account entirely.

You can't have it both ways.

In other words, if you believe Schwartz, then based on the "proof" we have; Bs man almost certainly was her killer, because there was no "evidence" another man came along afterwards.

And so to believe Schwartz is to effectively rule out Stride as a Ripper victim.