Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[JeffHamm]

Hello Wickerman. Thank you for your comments. Yes I do see what you are saying and you have great knowledge. I dont want to be seen as someone just making daft suggestions. So bear with me.

Its the comments of Eagle at the Inquest that I think are interesting. He does state that when he came down and looked at Stride there was another member present. He then says

'I ran towards the Commercial-road, Dienishitz, the club steward, and another member going in the opposite direction down Fairclough- street. In Commercial-road I found two constables at the corner of Grove-street. I told them that a woman had been murdered in Berner-street, and they returned with me'.

He is saying, not me that he starts his run at the same time as Diemschutz and another who went in the other direction. He knows this because that's what happened and that is what he is saying.

I am sorry to any readers who think I am not making sense and yes I dont know where it takes us but I trying not to formulate ideas but look at what the actual people at the time said.

Yes you are probably right that there were many in the yard at this time but its just Eagles comments about when he saw the body that there was another in the yard. It just strikes me stange because he would say when I looked at the body there were other members in the yard wouldnt he?

All food for thought.

Thanks all

NW

Hi NW,

The events around the Stride scene get complicated and confused, and generally one has to look at quite a few statements in order to get some semblance of clarity. The "other member" who goes with Diemschutz (whose name escapes me at the moment), at some points says that he and Eagle went north to Commercial. These two statements, taken at face value, seem to contradict, however, after much discussion what emerged was that it appears Eagle probably exited the club after Diemschutz and the other member had already left. It was suggested that Diemschutz may have slowed during the return to talk with Spooner, who then accompanies Diemschutz back to the club but the other club member continues to hurry ahead of Diemschutz and arrives back as Eagle departs, and so joins him. We know from the police that they were summoned by two Jews, which would be Eagle and the other member.

Eagle must have been told that Diemshutz and someone else had gone down Fairclough, which appears to be what he's referring to in that regards rather than him saying they left at the same time he did. Otherwise he couldn't have been accompanied by the other member, which we know by the police and the other member's statements, that he was with this other fellow.

That sequence also makes sense, given Eagle was upstairs, and Diemschutz hadn't gone upstairs (someone else did after Diemshutz alerted the downstairs members). As such, it makes sense that Diemschutz would get back to the body and have left before Eagle emerges. As the run down Fairclough and back would only take around 2 minutes (the return trip is about 950 feet, and at a running speed of 6 mph, that's about 1 m 48 seconds). As such, Eagle doesn't have to be far behind Deimshutz in terms of getting to the scene and deciding to leave in order for the other fellow to return at about the time Eagle departs. And a difference of roughly 2 minutes seems to me to be entirely reasonable given the news has to first spread around the downstairs, someone has to decide to alert those upstairs, and then those upstairs decide what to do (Eagle included), and for them to then decide to go downstairs and outside, and so forth. Confusion, and therefore some delays, are to be expected given the news being delivered.

So in terms of the sequence of the Fairclough journey and the subsequent northward journey to Commercial, despite what Eagle's statement looks like in isolation, when combined with the other information, it emerges that the two journeys were closer to one after the other than in parallel. There might have been a bit of overlap, but it must have been small enough that the other fellow catches up with Eagle before they both reach the police.

While we can't be sure, given Deimshutz and the other had departed when Eagle arrived, and given it makes sense that someone would have to stay with the body while the others searched, it therefore is even possible that when Eagle arrived there was indeed only one other person there (Eagle being the first of the eventual crowd to emerge - and this one person informed him that the other two went south looking for the police, and perhaps when the other fellow rounded the corner to come back up Fairclough he indicated they failed, so Eagle went north and the other fellow goes with him. That to me seems a very plausible and realistic chain of events and tallies nicely with all of the statements given. Each witness's statement reflecting their own unique perspective in the overall scene.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

...

Its the comments of Eagle at the Inquest that I think are interesting. He does state that when he came down and looked at Stride there was another member present. He then says

'I ran towards the Commercial-road, Dienishitz, the club steward, and another member going in the opposite direction down Fairclough- street. In Commercial-road I found two constables at the corner of Grove-street. I told them that a woman had been murdered in Berner-street, and they returned with me'.

He is saying, not me that he starts his run at the same time as Diemschutz and another who went in the other direction. He knows this because that's what happened and that is what he is saying.

Hi NW.
I assume there's no need to respond to the above point as Jeff gave an impeccable explanation of the likely scenario.

Suffice to say, you just discovered why we cannot always take a witness comment in isolation. Often we will find an answer if we look at the complete picture, as you see Eagle was not saying Diemschutz left at the same time, he is only summarizing the events.
He (Eagle) ran towards Commercial Rd, and Diemschutz ran the other way. It is easy to assume Eagle meant 'at the same time', but when we learn the complete story, the picture changes.