Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[Wickerman]

There is one key aspect of Mortimer's statement that nobody seems to consider...

Mortimer claims she heard measured footsteps pass outside her door...

Which I think rules out PC Smith, he was on the other side of the street.
Otherwise, you make a good point, two men passed but she only heard one?

[Wickerman]

Morris Eagle returns to the club and although he didn't take much notice of the surroundings it appears Stride and Parcel Man were no longer in the immediate area.

To my mind, when Eagle said he didn't take notice of anyone in the street - that must include Stride & Parcel-man.
There are no grounds to exclude them.

[The Rookie Detective]

Which I think rules out PC Smith, he was on the other side of the street.
Otherwise, you make a good point, two men passed but she only heard one?

Exactly my point yes Jon!


It took me several long drawn out posts to try and make a point that you manage to explain perfectly in just 1 sentence.

Thats then difference is quality right there.

Hats off to you sir!


RD

[Wickerman]

...But of course; if you were to omit Schwartz's account entirely, then Mortimer heard PC Smith as the police officer walked BACK up Berner Street after having seen Parcelman with Stride.

Mortimer could have heard PC Smith walk past her door heading NORTH up Berner Street as late as 12.38am, just as Eagle tried the door of the club and headed back into the side door in the yard at 12.40am.

Packer said Stride & Parcel-man stood on the opposite side of the street for a long time (he estimates a half-hour, which can't be right), which covers the time PC Smith came by on his beat. Smith then must be on the opposite side walking up Berner St.
Packer then says he saw Stride & Parcel-man come back over to the club (towards the yard), when he closed his windows up.

[The Rookie Detective]

Bs Man only exists through Schwartz.

Therefore, when Mortimer heard measured footsteps pass by her door, she couldn't have heard both Schwartz AND BS Man, unless Bs Man was already located SOUTH of Mortimer's door when she heard Schwartz pass by.

That in turn may suggest that Bs Man and Parcelman are the same man.

After PC Smith walks off, and Eagle returns and walks past Stride and Parcelman (Eagle confirmed there were others in the street by using a 'double negative' in his response to being asked)

The issue then is...

If Parcelman then leaves; he must give the parcel to Stride. Parcelman then leaves and heads up Berner St, but then stops and turns BACK towards Stride to assault her.
Perhaps he had thought that Stride had robbed him?

By BS man remaining SOUTH of Mortimer's door, It explains the following...

Why Mortimer only heard 1 man walk past (Schwartz)
Why Schwartz only encountered BS man as he approached the murder location; with BS Man just ahead of him.
Why Schwartz doesn't walk behind BS Man from the main road.

Now, because of time limitations; one of the following IMO is likely...

Parcel man is also BS Man
Parcel man is Lave but Bs Man is someone else
Parcel man is Bs Man but Lave is someone else
Parcel man is Lave and Bs Man, as they are all the same person.

Of course; if Schwartz's account didn't happen, but Schwartz needed to explain his presence in Berner Street, then Schwartz still may have passed by Mortimer's door; but rather than Bs Man attacking Stride, could Schwartz himself have been the man who attacked Stride and was then chased from the scene as reported in the press?

Has it ever been considered that Schwartz himself may have been the Jewish suspect and that the witness who wouldn't testify was Nathan Shine, who claimed he saw Stride being murdered?

Nathan's father in Law was of course Isaac Van Gelder a key member of the WVC.

Was Schwartz the man who become the Jewish suspect after he seems to just disappear from the press?

[Sunny Delight]

To my mind, when Eagle said he didn't take notice of anyone in the street - that must include Stride & Parcel-man.
There are no grounds to exclude them.

Agreed. That is why I said appeared not to be. Not that they definitely were not. Eagle couldn't remember if he had seen anyone on the street. He did say he had seen men and woman on side streets whilst making his way back from leaving his girlfriend home. It was strange then to be uncertain of anyone on Berner Street which makes me come to the opinion it is likely he did not see anyone.

[Sunny Delight]

Which I think rules out PC Smith, he was on the other side of the street.
Otherwise, you make a good point, two men passed but she only heard one?

We don't know Mortimers position in the house when BS man and Schwartz passed. Maybe she was outwith hearing distance of the street. Unless we believe her a liar she heard the measured steps pass her home. Considering Schwartz places 4 people on the street at that time- we know Schwartz and Pipeman went the opposite direction to Mortimer's home and it could not have been Stride. That leaves only one possibility based on the evidence we have.

[c.d.]

We don't know Mortimers position in the house when BS man and Schwartz passed. Maybe she was outwith hearing distance of the street.

Good point. Nor do we know where her attention was. Keep in mind that she had a sick husband and I believe five children.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

We don't know Mortimers position in the house when BS man and Schwartz passed. Maybe she was outwith hearing distance of the street. Unless we believe her a liar she heard the measured steps pass her home. Considering Schwartz places 4 people on the street at that time- we know Schwartz and Pipeman went the opposite direction to Mortimer's home and it could not have been Stride. That leaves only one possibility based on the evidence we have.

It leaves one person based on Schwartz's evidence, but it is not the only evidence we have.

[Sunny Delight]

It leaves one person based on Schwartz's evidence, but it is not the only evidence we have.

What other evidence is there in relation to Berner Street at 12:45am? James Brown maybe, but it does appear more likely he saw the couple described by Fanny Mortimer.

[Sunny Delight]

We don't know Mortimers position in the house when BS man and Schwartz passed. Maybe she was outwith hearing distance of the street.

Good point. Nor do we know where her attention was. Keep in mind that she had a sick husband and I believe five children.

c.d.

Yes I believe Mr Mortimer died a year later and the Mortimers had five kids, including a toddler if I remember correctly. There is not much time between Mrs Mortimer missing the footsteps as Schwartz and BS man walked down Berner Street and the measured footsteps she hears before coming to her door. But then real life can be like that.

As I have continually said unless we believe her a liar she heard measured footsteps at close to 12:45am pass her house. Whether it was a simple fact that she had to comfort a child, check on her husband or was at the toilet she missed the footsteps coming down Berner Street but heard someone going back up. If we consider Schwartz evidence to be reliable it leaves only one option. BS man. Inserting others into the scenario is rabbit hole stuff really. It also goes against what we know.

[The Rookie Detective]

Yes I believe Mr Mortimer died a year later and the Mortimers had five kids, including a toddler if I remember correctly. There is not much time between Mrs Mortimer missing the footsteps as Schwartz and BS man walked down Berner Street and the measured footsteps she hears before coming to her door. But then real life can be like that.

As I have continually said unless we believe her a liar she heard measured footsteps at close to 12:45am pass her house. Whether it was a simple fact that she had to comfort a child, check on her husband or was at the toilet she missed the footsteps coming down Berner Street but heard someone going back up. If we consider Schwartz evidence to be reliable it leaves only one option. BS man. Inserting others into the scenario is rabbit hole stuff really. It also goes against what we know.

If Mortimer heard Bs Man pass by her door, then unless he stopped in the place he was first seen by Schwartz, then it would have been Schwartz she had heard and not BS Man.

She could have just missed BS man pass by but then heard Schwartz, but the other way around is implausible.

She heard 1 man.


Bs Man was ahead of Schwartz.

We know Schwartz passed her door.

We have no account that BS man ever passed her door.

There is a chance that BS man remained SOUTH of Mortimer's House and so the only footsteps would have been Schwartz.


Bs man may have been Parcelman or Lave.



The idea that Mortimer heard Bs Man but didn't hear Schwartz moments later, is clutching at straws.

At no time does Schwartz say that he sees Bs Man walk the length of Berner Street.

if his account is correct and true, then it's more likely Schwartz that Mortimer hears passing by her door.

[Wickerman]

....We have no account that BS man ever passed her door.

....At no time does Schwartz say that he sees Bs Man walk the length of Berner Street.

Chris.
The press account reads as if BS-man walked down Berner St.

When he (Schwartz) came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved. As he turned the corner from Commercial-road he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated. He walked on behind him, and presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alley way where the body was afterwards found.

This is my reason for not accepting BS-man could be Parcel-man - they came from opposite directions.

Jon S.

[Wickerman]

As I have continually said unless we believe her a liar she heard measured footsteps at close to 12:45am pass her house. Whether it was a simple fact that she had to comfort a child, check on her husband or was at the toilet she missed the footsteps coming down Berner Street but heard someone going back up. If we consider Schwartz evidence to be reliable it leaves only one option. BS man. Inserting others into the scenario is rabbit hole stuff really. It also goes against what we know.

Mortimer doesn't need to be lying, mistaken is good enough. Lying, in most cases, requires motive. We know of no motive for her to lie.

That aside, the point here, as I see it is, Schwartz claims BS-man was staggering ahead of him, while Mortimer heard measured footsteps.
Measured footsteps & staggering are not the same.

BS-man walked down to the gateway, but we have no evidence which way he left.
Likewise, Parcelman was last seen crossing the road to the gateway, but we have no evidence which way he left.
Parcel-man isn't "inserted", he was there, seen by at least two witnesses, whereas only one witness saw BS-man.

You seem to be satisfied that BS-man is a legitimate suspect, but on the same evidence you reject Parcel-man being a legitimate suspect.
The police regarded both as legitimate suspects.

If, in your opinion, Parcel-man is an "insert" when we speculate how he left, then BS-man is also an "insert" for precisely the same reason.
No-one saw either of them leave.

[Sunny Delight]

If Mortimer heard Bs Man pass by her door, then unless he stopped in the place he was first seen by Schwartz, then it would have been Schwartz she had heard and not BS Man.

She could have just missed BS man pass by but then heard Schwartz, but the other way around is implausible.

She heard 1 man.


Bs Man was ahead of Schwartz.

We know Schwartz passed her door.

We have no account that BS man ever passed her door.

There is a chance that BS man remained SOUTH of Mortimer's House and so the only footsteps would have been Schwartz.


Bs man may have been Parcelman or Lave.



The idea that Mortimer heard Bs Man but didn't hear Schwartz moments later, is clutching at straws.

At no time does Schwartz say that he sees Bs Man walk the length of Berner Street.

if his account is correct and true, then it's more likely Schwartz that Mortimer hears passing by her door.

BS man went past Mortimer's house alone after attacking Stride and killing her. He was out of Berner Street shortly after 12:45am.