Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[Sunny Delight]

Not all "assaults" are equal in nature. That is the key. I think those who simply can't get over the idea of Stride being assaulted twice in such a short period of time are conflating the two events and evaluating the first event in the light of the second. So while the likelihood of two assaults in such a short time does seem highly unlikely, if you rid your mind of the word "assault" which is such a heavily loaded word conjuring up very negative images and look at the actual description of the incident as given by Schwartz you can start to put this particular assault in perspective.

We don't know the cause of the incident. Stride may have been the instigator. We don't know the intent of the B.S.man. Was he seriously trying to hurt her or simply trying to get her to move or maybe teach her a lesson for mouthing off to him. Did he pull a little harder than he meant to possibly being drunk? Could Stride have let go and fallen unintentionally as a result? Schwartz not understanding what was said really muddles the whole incident and so we might be drawing conclusions that are not warranted.

And finally ask yourself this question - do you think Stride would have even bothered to report this "vicious assault" as some like to call it? I sincerely doubt it. And if she did, and the B.S man were arrested as a result, what do you think would have happened? Hanging, life in prison? My guess would be don't do it again or maybe a small fine.

I know I have said this many times before but we have to keep some sort of perspective on this and get away from the idea of a vicious assault defying all odds and see it exactly as Schwartz described it. Change your perspective and perhaps you will see it differently.

c.d.

I agree that assault is a loaded word and I am not sure the incident was ever referred to as such by the Police. Schwartz description describes a scuffle rather than an assault- however the fact that Stride was physically manhandled to the point of falling to the ground gives an idea into the force used. Wasn't there bruising found on her shoulders? Possibly indicating an assault/scuffle/attack consistent with that which Schwartz saw.

I have never described what Schwartz saw as a vicious assault. I think anyone trying to characterise the incident as such is being disingenuous and maybe attempting to paint a narrative more in keeping with their own theory. It does however strike me as BS man, who I believe to be the Ripper, starting to feel invincible and losing the sense of his surroundings- possibly with alcohol involved.

We know that Whitechapel could be a violent and unforgiving place. We know that these kind of scuffles were likely quite common. We cannot discount that someone came along a few minutes after BS man and carried out the murder. I just see it as very unlikely.

I have always felt that Fanny Mortimer- although a little inconsistent and there is difficulty around the timings, but for me she holds the key. If it was someone else who attacked Stride then it would have to be immediately following the incident seen by Schwartz that Stride was again approached and they moved silently into the yard before Mortimer comes to her door. The timings around another man approaching Stride wishing to do her harm are so tight as to be unrealistic to me.

[Wickerman]

...Schwartz walked along Berner Street and saw an incident that none of use can deduce the full nature of. He then ran away. This means that we can’t know what happened next apart from the fact that Diemschitz found Stride dead at around 1.00. No one saw this incident because it only took a few seconds and there was no one else on the street at that time.

Precisely, could be as much as 10 minutes, more or less, of missing time between what Schwartz claims he saw and the arrival of Diemschutz. The missing time permits the presence of a third man, which is perfectly viable when the Chief Inspector himself suggests the possibility.

[Wickerman]

That is quite the leap. It's hardly as if she was 200 yards down the street when Schwartz saw her. She literally a few yards from where 15 minutes later she is found dead. Of course the possibility remains that she was attacked twice. I just find it very unlikely.

Distance is immaterial, its the time between the two incidents that permits the theory.
BS-man pulled or knocked her to the ground in the gateway, she was found on the ground several feet away. BS-man was not said to have pulled Stride by her scarf, and she was found on her left side facing the wall, having been pulled backward.
Two separate incidents.

[The Rookie Detective]

No one saw this incident because it only took a few seconds and there was no one else on the street at that time.

Okay, so based on this; we have at least established that neither...

Eagle
Lave
Brown
Mortimer
PC Smith
Diemschitz
Packer (okay, forget him)
Parcel man
"no, not tonight" man (?)
The other "courting" couple
Any of the individuals in the club NOT upstairs in the clubhouse room...

were NOT in the street OR within earshot of EITHER the shout of "Lipski!" AND the 3 muted screams that Stride let out as she was thrown down to the ground?


Interesting.

[Wickerman]

Well no, we have not established where Parcelman was, and the only witness who remarks on the crucial 10 minutes (12:45-12:55) is Mortimer who says no-one entered or left the yard in that time.
She does not say no-one was in the yard, because she couldn't see inside the yard from her doorstep.

[c.d.]

If Stride's body was not found where Schwartz said he last saw her then we have to come up with possible explanations. Although I think it is highly unlikely she would
have voluntarily gone with the B.S. man to where she was killed it is not out of the question. Here, I am thinking along the lines of the throwing down being an accident, an apology and perhaps an offer of more money (yes, I am assuming she was soliciting).

If she was dragged while standing and attempting to fight him off it is hard to imagine the tissue wrapped cachous staying in her hand. Seems unlikely but not impossible.

I think the most reasonable explanation is that the B.S. man left and her killer came on the scene and she went voluntarily with him to where she was killed.

c.d.

[c.d.]

were NOT in the street OR within earshot of EITHER the shout of "Lipski!" AND the 3 muted screams that Stride let out as she was thrown down to the ground?

But do we know how loud they were?

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Okay, so based on this; we have at least established that neither...

Eagle
Lave
Brown
Mortimer
PC Smith
Diemschitz
Packer (okay, forget him)
Parcel man
"no, not tonight" man (?)
The other "courting" couple
Any of the individuals in the club NOT upstairs in the clubhouse room...

were NOT in the street OR within earshot of EITHER the shout of "Lipski!" AND the 3 muted screams that Stride let out as she was thrown down to the ground?


Interesting.

Without looking back in detail RD I’d say..

Eagle and Lave had gone back inside the club.
Brown was possibly in the shop getting his supper.
Mortimer was in her house.
Smith was around half way around his beat.
Diemschitz turned up around 15 minutes after the event.
We Know nothing about Parcelman or the couples but it may simply have been a case of people not wanting to get involved…or perhaps the couples weren’t actually couples and so preferred to keep their liaisons to themselves?

We don’t know how loud the shout of Lipski was but this wasn’t a wide street so it didn’t need to be loud. The muted screams weren’t loud. To be honest, as I said in the other thread, I tend to think this…..a quiet scream sounds a bit of an oxymoron as screams are always loud. No one would say this imo apart from someone whose English was poor or who was talking via an interpreter. I think that ‘screamEd’ was probably just the wrong word. Either way he was certain to say not very loudly. So that was the case. Not very loud…so no one heard it or perhaps someone might have just about heard but it was just background noise to them so it didn’t register.

[c.d.]

Yeah, I mean it was not like the B.S. man was out there with a megaphone yelling Lipski over and over again at the top of his lungs.

c.d.

[The Rookie Detective]

Well no, we have not established where Parcelman was, and the only witness who remarks on the crucial 10 minutes (12:45-12:55) is Mortimer who says no-one entered or left the yard in that time.
She does not say no-one was in the yard, because she couldn't see inside the yard from her doorstep.

But she would have seen Bs Man and Schwartz who weren't in the yard.

She would have seen anyone in the street

We know Schwartz passed her door and unless BS man had retraced his steps; he also would have passed her door.

She hears a man with heavy boots passing.

That can only have been Pc Smith, Schwartz, Bs man, Parcelman or Diemschitz

It wasn't Eagle or Lave (almost certainly)

[The Rookie Detective]

Yeah, I mean it was not like the B.S. man was out there with a megaphone yelling Lipski over and over again at the top of his lungs.

c.d.

And yet it was audible enough for Schwartz to hear it and menacing enough for him to be scared and run away.

Perhaps its the translation that was off and Schwartz witnessed the whole thing in Berners Street; a different place entirely.

Can you imagine haha!

[c.d.]

And yet it was audible enough for Schwartz to hear it and menacing enough for him to be scared and run away.

Perhaps its the translation that was off and Schwartz witnessed the whole thing in Berners Street; a different place entirely.

Can you imagine haha!

Are you saying that it is suspicious that Schwartz heard something shouted at him?

c.d.

[The Rookie Detective]

Are you saying that it is suspicious that Schwartz heard something shouted at him?

c.d.

I'm saying it's suspicious than nobody else did.

[Jon Guy]

Accepted Jon they’re certainly not exact parallels. I accept that the likelihood is that BS man was the killer but I’d just say that it’s not entirely impossible that for example, BS scarpered and the killer came over to offer ‘sympathy.’ Pure speculation of course.

Sorry Michael, good point. I absolutely accept that it was possible for another person to arrive on the scene. But, as you know, I reckon BS Man looks just like the man Marshall saw with Stride an hour earlier, and for that reason I believe it was him (BS Man /Marshall`s Man) who came back and attacked her. I think this man was the Ripper because whoever killed Stride did so quickly and efficiently attacking the left carotid again. The man also had a peaked cap like Church Passage Man. Also, the timing of the murder in Mitre Sq sits well with someone leaving Berner Street at 1am.

[Jon Guy]

Perhaps I've not been expressing myself well enough, Jon. What I've been trying to say is that the attack witnessed by Schwartz may just as well have been only the beginning of one whole attack (by one man) on Stride and that it ended with her throat being cut. But what I've also been trying to say is that the initial attack (witnessed by Schwartz) did not involve a knife. Seen in that way, there were 2 seperate attacks, although they weren't necessarily seperated by minutes, if any at all.


My idea of the Ripper is that he was driven by an urge to mutilate his victims. In fact, he was willing to risk his life for it by staying on the crime scene to carry out those mutilations. One of the things that clearly stand out in comparison to the other murders is that there were so relatively many witnesses still up & about in the vicinity of Dutfield's Yard. Another is that Stride seems to have been attacked in a different way than the others. Where the other outloors victims seem to have been strangled to some extent and were then lowered onto their backs to facilitate the mutilations, Stride seems to have been attacked in a different way and, importantly, wasn't placed on her back. Certainly if we're supposing that Mr. BS was the Ripper, then he attacked a victim right in front of at least one witness, pushing her around and throwing her on the ground and he didn't mutilate her. In the other cases, he apparently didn't raise any suspicion until it was too late for his victims.

The best,
Frank

Thanks Frank. I understand your points above. But, to be fair Berner Street was an oasis of calm compared to Hanbury Street, and if he was the Ripper what if he killed Stride and then noticed Schwartz, and he just legged it (to Mitre Sq), no mutilations? Stride was still attacked with one clean cut to the left carotid again, like the others.