Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[Michael W Richards]

Well, we don't know who Pipeman was, so we can't really be sure he wasn't from the club. I suspect he wasn't, but I can't say for certain he wasn't given we don't know who he was in the first place.

Regardless of that, though, I agree. I think Schwartz got it wrong, and Lipski was shouted at him as an insult. But it is Schwartz's initial belief that tells us about his intentions of giving his statement. And given Schwartz's belief that Lipski was shouted to Pipeman, sparking a search of the Lipski families in the area by the police, then we can be pretty sure Schwartz's intention was not to direct police away from Jewish offenders, which in turn, places the club and its members under potential police interest.

Given Schwartz was probably wrong, though, leads based upon Schwartz's interpretation of the events would go nowhere, as indeed appears to be the case in the search of the Lipski families.

- Jeff

I think IF Pipeman was really there and he stood in an entranceway to a pub, thats possibly 40 Berner Street itself. They were selling drinks upstairs,....as far as I know the only place on that street at that time of night that was serving alcohol, and we hear from neighbours like Fanny that men would come down to the passageway and smoke after meetings, ...Ive suggested that Israel Schwartz's event probably took place in the passageway if at all, and that the killer, the victim, and maybe other men..like Pipeman, Lave maybe....were smoking while a thug tussled with Liz just inside the right gate. And IF he said Lipski TO Israel, then he is unlikely to have been one of the immigrant jews socializing there. Why would a gentile be around there? Ive suggested a security thug, hired for the evening.

[Michael W Richards]

Just so its clear, I have presumed that the men left onsite were all, or almost all, immigrant jewish men. Its not a prerequisite to attend the club or its meetings, but in practice its likely that just the core men at the club were still there.

[Michael W Richards]

I just used that link that Al Bundy posted..thanks Al...and I believe that thread was part of what I had read, so my apologies for mislabelling the source who actually posted it, Maria. The connection with Johann Rocker is also an interesting Schwartz factoid. The club at this time was not mainstream Socialist anymore, it was the anarchist elements within the more conventional Socialist organizations that was infiltrating the area. Interestingly that did pit Jew against Jew in some cases.......(maybe see "Lipski" slur yelled)....and it contributed to William Morris backing out of speaking at the club that very night. Eagle, although a semi regular speaker there, was not originally intended to speak that night, he was subbed in when Morris backed out.

Its why its possible that they had some security men booked for that night, they had had some threats about Morris speaking. There may in fact have been a gentile BSM there.

[Sunny Delight]

The Broad shouldered man seen by Schwartz is likely Jack the Ripper in my opinion.

[c.d.]

The Broad shouldered man seen by Schwartz is likely Jack the Ripper in my opinion.

Hello Sunny,

Why do you think he would have killed Stride after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man?

c.d.

[Sunny Delight]

Hello Sunny,

Why do you think he would have killed Stride after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man?

c.d.

That is difficult to say. Speaking as a rational, clear minded person familiar with the events that followed the initial scuffle or attack on Stride, it seems incomprehensible that BS man would continue with his attack. However we are dealing with a likely irrational and possibly drunk or tipsy person living in that moment. Trying to discern exactly what the Ripper may have been thinking is to my mind impossible.

BS man does bear an uncanny resemblance to the man seen by Jospeh Lawende. It also seems to my mind very unlikely that a woman, possibly soliciting, would be attacked physically and then attacked and murdered by two separate men in the same location 15 minutes apart.

Why did he continue the attack on Stride after being seen? If I had to guess or offer something it may have been that BS man was drunk or tipsy and less careful particularly with his surroundings. Possibly he just had the urge to attack and once he had started he felt determined to finish. We see this with the further attack on Eddowes. Why not just go home? Why take such a risk as to find another victim? Same reasons. Some drink taken and an insatiable urge to mutilate once he had started. He couldn't finish with Stride so looked elsewhere. To our minds a totally irrational decision. But we are not dealing with a rational mind.

[c.d.]

Thanks for the response, Sunny.

c.d.

[The Rookie Detective]

BS man may have indeed been Stride's killer; but if so, then it's unlikely that her killer was the Ripper.

For an intoxicated man to walk up to Stride and throw her down to the floor and make a scene so to speak; doesn't ring true in terms of the type of killer the Ripper was.

The bottom line is that he assault witnessed by Schwartz, is too public to be the work of the Ripper

Unless of.course BS man didn't exist in the first place.

[John Wheat]

BS man may have indeed been Stride's killer; but if so, then it's unlikely that her killer was the Ripper.

For an intoxicated man to walk up to Stride and throw her down to the floor and make a scene so to speak; doesn't ring true in terms of the type of killer the Ripper was.

The bottom line is that he assault witnessed by Schwartz, is too public to be the work of the Ripper

Unless of.course BS man didn't exist in the first place.

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions RD. I don't think we can predict how the Ripper would have acted at any given time. BS man may have been Stride's killer he also may have been the Ripper.

Cheers John

[Jon Guy]

That is difficult to say. Speaking as a rational, clear minded person familiar with the events that followed the initial scuffle or attack on Stride, it seems incomprehensible that BS man would continue with his attack. However we are dealing with a likely irrational and possibly drunk or tipsy person living in that moment. Trying to discern exactly what the Ripper may have been thinking is to my mind impossible.

BS man does bear an uncanny resemblance to the man seen by Jospeh Lawende. It also seems to my mind very unlikely that a woman, possibly soliciting, would be attacked physically and then attacked and murdered by two separate men in the same location 15 minutes apart.

Why did he continue the attack on Stride after being seen? If I had to guess or offer something it may have been that BS man was drunk or tipsy and less careful particularly with his surroundings. Possibly he just had the urge to attack and once he had started he felt determined to finish. We see this with the further attack on Eddowes. Why not just go home? Why take such a risk as to find another victim? Same reasons. Some drink taken and an insatiable urge to mutilate once he had started. He couldn't finish with Stride so looked elsewhere. To our minds a totally irrational decision. But we are not dealing with a rational mind.

Hi Sunny

BS Man (the Ripper) had already attacked (murdered) Stride when he noticed Schwartz on the other side of the road.

[Elamarna]

BS man may have indeed been Stride's killer; but if so, then it's unlikely that her killer was the Ripper.

For an intoxicated man to walk up to Stride and throw her down to the floor and make a scene so to speak; doesn't ring true in terms of the type of killer the Ripper was.

The bottom line is that he assault witnessed by Schwartz, is too public to be the work of the Ripper

Unless of.course BS man didn't exist in the first place.

Hi RD, it seems you haveaview of how the killer would behave, I think that's a very big assumption.


Steve

[Elamarna]

Hi Sunny

BS Man (the Ripper) had already attacked (murdered) Stride when he noticed Schwartz on the other side of the road.

Or he was in the process doing so, when he responded Jon.
Blackwell thought it very possible that the throat was cut as she went to the ground

Steve

[c.d.]

Or he was in the process doing so, when he responded Jon.
Blackwell thought it very possible that the throat was cut as she went to the ground

Steve

But that is not the spot where her body was found and Swanson's report makes it clear that according to Schwartz she was alive when he left the scene.

c.d.

[Jon Guy]

Or he was in the process doing so, when he responded Jon.
Blackwell thought it very possible that the throat was cut as she went to the ground

Steve

Very possibly Steve. Stride was already on the ground when BS Man shouted Lipski, which as you note re: Blackwell, she probably had her throat cut as she went down.

[Jon Guy]

But that is not the spot where her body was found and Swanson's report makes it clear that according to Schwartz she was alive when he left the scene.

c.d.

The Star`s version has Stride where she was found inside the gate
Yes, Schwartz believed he was witnessed an assault not murder but nothing in his statement gives the impression that Stride was alive after BS Man hurled his abuse at him.