Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[Michael W Richards]

Well, we don't know who Pipeman was, so we can't really be sure he wasn't from the club. I suspect he wasn't, but I can't say for certain he wasn't given we don't know who he was in the first place.

Regardless of that, though, I agree. I think Schwartz got it wrong, and Lipski was shouted at him as an insult. But it is Schwartz's initial belief that tells us about his intentions of giving his statement. And given Schwartz's belief that Lipski was shouted to Pipeman, sparking a search of the Lipski families in the area by the police, then we can be pretty sure Schwartz's intention was not to direct police away from Jewish offenders, which in turn, places the club and its members under potential police interest.

Given Schwartz was probably wrong, though, leads based upon Schwartz's interpretation of the events would go nowhere, as indeed appears to be the case in the search of the Lipski families.

- Jeff

I think IF Pipeman was really there and he stood in an entranceway to a pub, thats possibly 40 Berner Street itself. They were selling drinks upstairs,....as far as I know the only place on that street at that time of night that was serving alcohol, and we hear from neighbours like Fanny that men would come down to the passageway and smoke after meetings, ...Ive suggested that Israel Schwartz's event probably took place in the passageway if at all, and that the killer, the victim, and maybe other men..like Pipeman, Lave maybe....were smoking while a thug tussled with Liz just inside the right gate. And IF he said Lipski TO Israel, then he is unlikely to have been one of the immigrant jews socializing there. Why would a gentile be around there? Ive suggested a security thug, hired for the evening.

[Michael W Richards]

Just so its clear, I have presumed that the men left onsite were all, or almost all, immigrant jewish men. Its not a prerequisite to attend the club or its meetings, but in practice its likely that just the core men at the club were still there.

[Michael W Richards]

I just used that link that Al Bundy posted..thanks Al...and I believe that thread was part of what I had read, so my apologies for mislabelling the source who actually posted it, Maria. The connection with Johann Rocker is also an interesting Schwartz factoid. The club at this time was not mainstream Socialist anymore, it was the anarchist elements within the more conventional Socialist organizations that was infiltrating the area. Interestingly that did pit Jew against Jew in some cases.......(maybe see "Lipski" slur yelled)....and it contributed to William Morris backing out of speaking at the club that very night. Eagle, although a semi regular speaker there, was not originally intended to speak that night, he was subbed in when Morris backed out.

Its why its possible that they had some security men booked for that night, they had had some threats about Morris speaking. There may in fact have been a gentile BSM there.