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Stuart Kind, Geographic Profiler.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

    Hi Trevor,

    You are sort of describing what is referred to as a "Commuter" pattern, where an offender travels away from their home range (areas that are associated with their normal day-to-day activities) to their crime range (the region where they commit offenses - but as I have issues with that notion, this, sadly, will not be short; sorry). The other pattern, referred to in the literature as the "marauder" pattern, are offenders whose area of criminal activity overlaps with their home range (the area of their day-to-day activities). Within the home range are locations referred to as "anchor points", which are the locations one tends to be connected with - so one's residence, one's place of work, the pub one may regularly frequent, church, school, recreation locations (gym/fishing spots/etc), and so forth. The underlying notion is that marauders will tend to offend in areas associated with anchor points, with their residence often being a strong anchor (but, it must be emphasized, not always! - This is one of the pet peeves I have with how spatial analysis gets presented to the public, it tends to over emphasize the idea that one is trying to "locate where the offender lives", which is not really the case. While the residence often does end up fairly high in the resulting profile, there are cases where the main offending anchor point is the offender's place of work (Dennis Rader, or BTK, for example, was more anchored to his work locations than his residence), or their favourite pub (Bruce McArthur, in Toronto, met his victims in the pub, and for his case the only locations one could profile was the last known location the victims were seen - and this produces a profile that highlights the area that includes that pub - this is in part why I think the JtR spatial analysis may not necessarily be focusing on JtR's residence, but might be suggestive of pubs he visited).

    On the whole, though, far more serial killers fall into the marauder pattern than the commuter pattern. Moreover, many of the "commuter" serial killers are truckers, and their crime locations tend to be scattered along roadways (although there is the example of Angel Resendiz, the Railway Killer, who rode trains and killed along the rail lines). I've written and published an article on the "marauder/commuter" divisions, (Hamm, J.P. (2003). They might all be marauders, Psychiatry, Psychology, and Law, 30(5): p632–654.​) which suggests that the published rates of commuter patterns are probably vastly overestimated in many studies (and even despite my concerns on that, the general notion is that 80% of offenders are marauders and 20% commuters).

    So, if we set my concerns aside, a commuter as JtR is the less probable pattern, but 20% is still something to be considered and one shouldn't set it aside. And the idea of Jack being a sailor was the notion proposed by the first "Ripperologist", Edward Larkins, who had made quite an effort trying to track the comings and goings of various cattle ships trying to tie them to the dates of the murders. I think, in the end, he required one consider at least 3 different ships (almost a different ship per event, but perhaps he was including more than the C5??) and had to speculate that his "suspects" were actually on those ships. Larkins got a bit of a reputation amongst the officials as being a bit of a pain actually.

    In modern times, a commuter tends to distribute offenses very very widely, the notion of someone travelling to a particular location only to then search the area for victims is not something I can off the top of my head think of (I can, however, think of offenders who travel to a particular area or location because they know they can find victims there - such as those who go to red light districts to find prostitutes, or go to a specific pub to find victims, like Bruce McArthur did). These offenders, though, still tended to live relatively close to those locations (there was a UK fellow, though, who did travel into London to a pub to meet gay men in order to then kill them - I forget his name just now - and while he denied being gay himself, I have my suspicions that he was, and couldn't accept that about himself, and went to that pub on more than the occasions that he offended. That would mean the pub was part of his day-to-day life, even if a "secret life", and if so it then becomes a theoretical debate as to whether or not that location becomes part of his "home range".

    And after all that, that brings us back to what you describe, a sailor who regularly travels to London, means that London is part of his "every day life", it's part of his work-life to be there, and so that means London is just another part his "home range".

    Anyway, if JtR were a sailor, and he were only in London during the dates of the offenses, etc, that means at other times he's either at sea, or he's at another port. His "home range", therefore, would constitute London, his ship, and the ports he visits as part of his work (much like how Sutcliff's murders in Manchester reflect his work as a lorry driver, which took him there). The question then becomes, where are the disembowelling murders of prostitutes in the open streets but in other ports during that time? There is no reason why JtR, the travelling sailor, would limit his search for victims to just London, he would be searching where ever he is on land. But to my knowledge, there are no similar murders found in European ports (or anywhere else a sailor might end up, but given his round trip is around 2 weeks, I would expect a ship to and from Europe somewhere). I would expect at least one victim to be found elsewhere, and probably more, given he seems particularly successful given he would only have a couple nights to find a victim while in London - many serial killers prowl for weeks on end before the opportunity arises. Mind you, those serial killers are often targeting non-prostitutes (break and enter types), and those who target prostitutes usually just employ their services until the urge to kill returns, so I suppose their "success" rates are fairly high - I doubt it would be that hard to find a willing prostitute after all. But that just further raises the question of where are the crimes of a similar nature outside of London, particularly, in port cities? A "Jack the Tar", would be expected to kill at either end of his sailing journey, and yet, we have nothing of a similar nature elsewhere.

    Now, none of that precludes "Jack the Tar", but to speculate that JtR spent some time in London and some time somewhere else does seem to require one put forth some sort of evidence that JtR actually was somewhere else. Pointing to the lack of crimes in Whitechapel hardly works, as one can point to the lack of such crimes anywhere else during that period to argue he wasn't anywhere else either! So either he ceased to exist altogether (I think unlikely), or perhaps he was like most local serials killers and just in between crimes.

    As I say, I'm not saying it's impossible, and I'm not dismissing the idea entirely. obviously, we don't know what JtR was doing between crimes, so maybe he was on a ship or maybe he wasn't. All I know is that as far as I'm aware, there were no similar crimes committed in other cities that would suggest JtR was elsewhere, and without being able to place him elsewhere, odds are that he was still in London.

    - Jeff


    Hi Jeff
    The point I made is that the geo profiling which has been referred to and it is not the first time it has been used, is that we simply do not know enough about the killer or who he was to be able to say conclusively that he lived with the boundaries of Whitechapel and to do so in my opinion is a very blinkered approach and clearly it is being used to identify suspects that lived with the boundaries of Whitechapel.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post

      Agreed, and having limited information to work with is an unavoidable limitation of geographical profiling.

      It would be interesting to see the percentage of serial killers, who murdered women, who picked up their victims from pubs or used pubs as a base.

      I can't find any statistics, but I reckon I'd be right in suggesting that the overwhelming majority of serial killers; pick up women in red light districts, hitchhiking, driving around in a car looking for women in the street or breaking into people's homes.

      I reckon it is unusual for a serial killer to pick up women in a pub, or even to use a pub to select targets, or even to sit drinking in a pub and go outside to select targets.


      Agreed. We have limited information at our disposal and so there's lots to consider and a lot of options.
      There is no evidence to show the victims were picked up in pubs

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

        There is no evidence to show the victims were picked up in pubs

        www.trevormarriott.co.uk
        There isn't but in the interests of fairness, Jeff didn't suggest that.

        I think 'consideration' was the way he put it and I'd agree that it's worth considering.

        Upon consideration, however, I'd suggest it's unlikely. Simply based on the experience of serial killers. For the most part, it appears that it's not a good option for them; and they prefer sex workers on the street, hitchhikers on the street, driving around in a car looking for victims on the street or breaking into people's homes.

        'Seems for whatever reason those are the areas where they calculate most opportunity and least risk, and they do share traits in selecting weaker targets, ruse and ambush.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac

          Wrong thread.

          If you can't contribute sensibly and in the spirit of discussing ideas, then don't bother.
          Perhaps you could remind us all when you were made a Moderator on here? My comment was simply a bit of humour directed only at Trevor because of his suspect Feigenbaum, who was a merchant seaman (as mentioned in the post from Trevor that I was responding to). That is all. Stick to posting and leave the judging of others posts down to those who have the authority to do it.

          Regards

          Sir Herlock Sholmes.

          “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

          Comment


          • #20
            What's probably most interesting in terms of the OP, is how and why Kind correctly deduced that the later TODs/attacks (in terms of time of day) would be closer to home.

            The commentary I can find on this, surrounds evading capture and animal instinct in relation to sleep.

            That doesn't fully explain it to me.

            'Anyone have a good idea of Kind's thought process on that one?

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post

              ...

              I reckon it is unusual for a serial killer to pick up women in a pub, or even to use a pub to select targets, or even to sit drinking in a pub and go outside to select targets.
              Serial killers use many methods, but I was thinking if JtR at the pub and later goes out looking for victims, Drug and/or alcohol use is common in serial killers, so it would be one place to consider.

              You could be right and JtR didn't drink in pubs, but then again, you could be wrong and he did. It would be a line of enquiry that may or may not have produced a lead. We will never know though.

              - Jeff

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                Hi Jeff
                The point I made is that the geo profiling which has been referred to and it is not the first time it has been used, is that we simply do not know enough about the killer or who he was to be able to say conclusively that he lived with the boundaries of Whitechapel and to do so in my opinion is a very blinkered approach and clearly it is being used to identify suspects that lived with the boundaries of Whitechapel.

                www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                Trevor, if we knew what you think we need to know, we wouldn't need a spatial analysis because if we knew what you think we need to know then we would know who JtR was!

                Commuters of the sort you describe are rare, the exceptions not the rule. So until a JtR crime is found on the continent that occured mid-London series, there is no evidence that JtR left on a ship.

                So in the most likely case that JtR was in London, where in the area would be a good place to look for him? And that is what these types of analyses do, suggest where to look. It doesn't tell you what to look for, but if you wear a blindfold you will see nothing at all

                - Jeff


                Comment


                • #23
                  Well, I've found Stuart Kind's report. If you go to 'View PDF', it will open up for you.

                  'Seems I oversimplified his method.

                  The logic was underpinned by three assumptions:

                  1) The centre of gravity. They weren't fully sure which victims were at his hand. So, they considered all of the permeations and arrived at the same conclusion from all of those permeations: Bradford was the centre of gravity. This did not take into account the number of attacks in certain areas, but simply the location of an attack. It follows that knowing exactly how many murders were attributable to the WM, might not deter the ability to geographically profile his base.

                  2) The later TODs, in terms of time of day, would be closer to home.

                  3) The earlier attacks would be closer to home.

                  Points 1 and 2 placed the murderer's home in the Bradford area. Point 3 shifted the murderer's home to North Bradford, which turned out to be correct.

                  Navigational Ideas and the Yorkshire Ripper Investigation | The Journal of Navigation | Cambridge Core

                  I still do not understand the logic behind the later TODs (in terms of time of day) being more likely to be closer to home.

                  The second test made on the seventeen sets of data points concerned the possible effect on the timing of the crimes if the Ripper operated from a single location. The reasoning behind this test went thus: If the killer seeks his victims wherever he can find them and then returns to his base as quickly as possible, he will have the tendency to attack later in the day the closer he is to base. The reason for this tendency is to minimize the risk of being held up on the way home should the crime be swiftly discovered.

                  'Think I'm having a mental block here and not following what may be obvious to some others.

                  Anyway, it should make interesting reading for those interested.

                  And, in the event you applied Kind's three assumptions: the centre of gravity when permeating the options in terms of which were WM victims, the later TODs (in terms of time of day) and the earlier attacks being closer to home; I think you'd end up somewhere just off the Whitechapel Road, maybe between George Yard and Buck's Row.​

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                    There is no evidence to show the victims were picked up in pubs

                    www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                    I wasn't very clear, while there are serial killers who do find their victims in pubs, with JtR I was thinking more that there is a good chance he spent time in the pubs before going out and looking for victims, which he then found walking the street.

                    - Jeff

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                      Serial killers use many methods, but I was thinking if JtR at the pub and later goes out looking for victims, Drug and/or alcohol use is common in serial killers, so it would be one place to consider.

                      You could be right and JtR didn't drink in pubs, but then again, you could be wrong and he did. It would be a line of enquiry that may or may not have produced a lead. We will never know though.

                      - Jeff
                      When Rowntree looked at the state of the poor in the 1800s, he didn't go into every house nor every district. It was sufficient to sample the population and arrive at a wider conclusion. That's how science and historical study works: sampling as opposed to testing any and every man in order to arrive at a conclusion.

                      There are outliers of course. Had Rowntree gone into every district and house he would have seen out of the ordinary working class conditions, circumstances that didn't fit the wider reality. That's an obvious conclusion, but it doesn't change the wider, more prevalent, incidence.

                      We will never know, you're right, but the large volume of data we have at our disposal suggests it is unlikely that the WM was sat in the pub and then going out targeting victims. 'Not impossible, not implausible even, an outlier's chance; but not likely.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Lombro2
                        Sorry, I confused Bingley with Burnley.

                        Bingley would be outside that map, 7 miles
                        from Silsden.

                        This is what I would expect—a buffer zone between the kill zone and the actual residence. Geo-profiling doesn’t necessarily give residencial location—only pivot points which could be bars or places of work.
                        Rossmo argues for a buffer zone in the analysis routines, Canter doesn't believe they are useful. My own routines do not include a buffer zone, but mine work quite differently. Overall, there is little difference between the success rates between the two, indicating that having a bufferzone doesn't help, but it doesn't hurt either (it might "improve" one case, but in turn worsen another).

                        - Jeff

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post

                          When Rowntree looked at the state of the poor in the 1800s, he didn't go into every house nor every district. It was sufficient to sample the population and arrive at a wider conclusion. That's how science and historical study works: sampling as opposed to testing any and every man in order to arrive at a conclusion.

                          There are outliers of course. Had Rowntree gone into every district and house he would have seen out of the ordinary working class conditions, circumstances that didn't fit the wider reality. That's an obvious conclusion, but it doesn't change the wider, more prevalent, incidence.

                          We will never know, you're right, but the large volume of data we have at our disposal suggests it is unlikely that the WM was sat in the pub and then going out targeting victims. 'Not impossible, not implausible even, an outlier's chance; but not likely.
                          I don't follow you? Are you suggesting that the pubs in the area were empty and nobody used them? Otherwise, I don't understand why it being a poor area precludes JtR from drinking in the pub?

                          - Jeff

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post
                            Well, I've found Stuart Kind's report. If you go to 'View PDF', it will open up for you.
                            ...
                            Oh, nice! Good find. I never realised it got published and have only seen reference to his ideas in Canter's earlier work.

                            - Jeff

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Five to six murders aren't a sufficient number of 'data points' for any meaningful profiling analysis. Plus killer/victim behavior and external circumstances like the presence of witnesses in the street, lighting, etc. dictate when and where the killings occur.

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                              • #30
                                I'm pretty sure JTR lived in London. HTH.

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