Foreigners

[Observer]

Hello Observer,

Point(s) being:

(1) Foreigner may not necessarily mean Jewish, as is widely claimed on the boards and in some JTR literature.

(2) Does calling him guv'nor point to him being of a higher class, slummer perhaps? If so, what was he doing there? Not waiting for the market - unlikely anyway.

Best wishes,
C4

Hi C4

I have no problem with the suggestion that the mysterious foreigner need not have been Jewish. What is unacceptable is the suggestion that it was a particular person, that is Isenschmidt, or any other individual for that matter.

Whoever the individual was, I'd agree, he was person of interest.

Guv'nor wasn't necessarily a term used to address a superior, I believe it could be used between equals.

Regards

Observer

[Sam Flynn]

Guv'nor wasn't necessarily a term used to address a superior, I believe it could be used between equals.

"Guv'nor" could be, and still is, used in that manner, Obs - in fact, "guv'nor" is far more likely to be used between equals, with "sir" the preferred appellation for people of (real or apparent) superiority.

[curious4]

In my natural state

Oh Gwyneth

from an online dictionary:-



Now you've really got me going...for what it's worth I wouldn't throw coins at you either!

All the best

Dave

Hello Dave,

It was meant in sense 1b. Were I in my completely natural state you would probably throw coins, or anything handy!

Best wishes,
Gwyneth

[curious4]

Guv'nor

Hi C4

I have no problem with the suggestion that the mysterious foreigner need not have been Jewish. What is unacceptable is the suggestion that it was a particular person, that is Isenschmidt, or any other individual for that matter.

Whoever the individual was, I'd agree, he was person of interest.

Guv'nor wasn't necessarily a term used to address a superior, I believe it could be used between equals.

Regards

Observer

Hello Observer,

Never suggested that the man was Swiss - that was Lynn's input. Not heard the expression being used among equals, though.

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

Between equals

"Guv'nor" could be, and still is, used in that manner, Obs - in fact, "guv'nor" is far more likely to be used between equals, with "sir" the preferred appellation for people of (real or apparent) superiority.

Hello Sam Flynn,

Can't remember ever having heard the expression being used between equals when I was a child or even later. Taxi drivers, for example would address each other as "mate". Don't know about now, as I haven't lived in England for many years.

Best wishes,
C4

[Observer]

"Guv'nor" could be, and still is, used in that manner, Obs - in fact, "guv'nor" is far more likely to be used between equals, with "sir" the preferred appellation for people of (real or apparent) superiority.

Hi Sam

Of course if the man in question was indeed yon mad pork butcher, then you would address him as guv'nor. The thing is, if you found yourself standing in front of him in his butcher shop you wouldn't want to end up with load of old gristle ! Joking aside I have used and been the recipient of the term.
Regards

Observer

[Observer]

Hello Observer,

Never suggested that the man was Swiss - that was Lynn's input. Not heard the expression being used among equals, though.

Best wishes,
C4

Hi C4

It was aimed at the said gent. Re guv'nor, I have often herd it used thus

Regards

Observer

[Ginger]

"What prompted the question was the account of the strange man on the stairs in Hanbury street. He was referred to as "a foreigner" and we are told that he must therefore have been Jewish."

For what it's worth, the "Evening Standard" for Sept 10th (http://www.casebook.org/press_report.../18880910.html) quotes Mrs. Richardson as saying

The only possible clue that I can think of is that Mr. Thompson's wife met a man about a month ago lying on the stairs. This was about four o'clock in the morning. He looked like a Jew; and spoke with a foreign accent.

Whether these are Mrs. Richardson's verbatim words is open to question, considering that the sentence occurs in the middle of a fairly polished expository paragraph. Still, I don't doubt the reporter interviewed her, and see no reason to think that he didn't correctly relate the gist of her story.

[lynn cates]

Mein Vater war ein Wandersmann . . .

Hello Ginger. Thanks for posting that.

"Still, I don't doubt the reporter interviewed her, and see no reason to think that he didn't correctly relate the gist of her story."

Nor yet I. The man was:

1. waiting for the market to open

2. spoke with a foreign accent

3. looked Jewish (whatever that means)

And it could have been anyone--just as the foreign looking man, seen by Long, could have been anyone.

Of course, the man who was found living in a house off New Caledonian Road was NOT just anyone--it was Isenschmid. He had been wandering the streets for several weeks.

Cheers.
LC

[Sam Flynn]

Can't remember ever having heard the expression being used between equals when I was a child or even later.

I can't honestly recall its being used to address a superior, come to think of it, C4. I've usually heard it in shops/markets as the vendor hands over, say, a bag of fruit ("There ya go, guv'nor"), on leaving a taxi ("Take care, guv'nor") or as a greeting between friends ("Wotcha, guv").

Never have I heard it used from a pleb (like me) to a police officer, bank clerk, doctor, dentist or other figure possessing the merest authority. It's perhaps a tad too "familiar" for that.

[Tecs]

Just a quick question. If the Eastenders referred to Jews as "foreigners", what did they call foreigners?

Best wishes,
C4

Dear all,

Forgive me if I've misunderstood but as far as I remember the Jewish/foreigner issue was more about the Police changing the words? In answering the possible anti semitism of the Police it was pointed out that Hutchinson described a man of Jewish appearance but when printed in the press it was changed to foreign vis a vis, the Police actually tried to divert any suspicion from the Jews in order, most likely, to prevent any anti semitic incidents. This suggests that the locals didn't actually call Jews foreigners or vice versa but rather they did just call Jews Jews and it was changed elsewhere.

On the other points raised, I wish I could find a previous post I did and copy and paste it as it is the exact same point but wrt people asking what Jewish actually looks like, I did suggest that in our modern politically correct world we are terrified of ever saying anything that could even vaguely be considered racist, anti semitic or such like. As a result we shy away from saying what is true. I went to an event at a Jewish centre a few years ago. It was attended by many Jews and non Jews and to get to the point, it was very obvious on the whole who was Jewish and who wasn't. Of course it's not 100% accurate and there were plenty of people there who were Jewish but didn't look it and probably vice versa too. But let's not be silly, we all know what Jewish appearance looks like, and in many cases it would be true. No, it's not the be all and end all, no it's not 100% accurate, no I wouldn't bet my house on it and yes, of course there are exceptions but on the whole, I know what is meant by Jewish appearance.

As a final asside, we have many Polish people here in the North West. One of our local supermarkets is near to where many of them have settled and you hear many Polish and Eastern European voices when you are in there. I am pretty certain that I could identify 8-9 out of 10 people as Polish even though I couldn't tell you exactly what somebody Polish looks like! I was in there on Sunday and it is very clear who the Polish people are, it's just an instinct, it's just human nature.

And to pretend that it doesn't exist or that in any way it is symptomatic of anything sinister is stupid and even offensive.

regards,

[Paddy]

Hutchinsons Statement

Tecs....

Forgive me if I've misunderstood but as far as I remember the Jewish/foreigner issue was more about the Police changing the words? In answering the possible anti semitism of the Police it was pointed out that Hutchinson described a man of Jewish appearance

Pat.....................

[curious4]

Guv'nor

I can't honestly recall its being used to address a superior, come to think of it, C4. I've usually heard it in shops/markets as the vendor hands over, say, a bag of fruit ("There ya go, guv'nor"), on leaving a taxi ("Take care, guv'nor") or as a greeting between friends ("Wotcha, guv").

Never have I heard it used from a pleb (like me) to a police officer, bank clerk, doctor, dentist or other figure possessing the merest authority. It's perhaps a tad too "familiar" for that.

Hello Sam,

Looked up "guv'nor" and in the on-line Cambridge Dictionary, it is defined as "a man who is in a position of authority over you", while in the Urban dictionary it is said to mean "The Boss".

From your examples I would say that sometimes some plebs are more equal than others, and that you, being the paying customer, are in a position of power, so that the taxi-driver, greengrocer etc could be said to be "bigging you up" as your custom is important to them. Have you, for example, ever gone into a shop and asked for "a pound of onions, please guv"? Yes, I agree it is a term of familiarity. A politician in a posh suit, or a banker, for example would be addressed as "sir" (or cur, as I would prefer to spell the word in that case).

Between equals on a level footing I think most would use the word "mate" and this does seem to be the case between my nephews and their friends on Facebook, both working class men of around forty, and this seems also to have been passed on to their sons (aged around 12-13). After he discovered Eddowes' body, P.C. Watkins ran to the warehouse watchman for help exclaiming "For God's sake mate (i.e. friend, colleague) come to my assistance!".

Best wishes,
Gwyneth/C4

[curious4]

Immigrants

Dear all,

Forgive me if I've misunderstood but as far as I remember the Jewish/foreigner issue was more about the Police changing the words? In answering the possible anti semitism of the Police it was pointed out that Hutchinson described a man of Jewish appearance but when printed in the press it was changed to foreign vis a vis, the Police actually tried to divert any suspicion from the Jews in order, most likely, to prevent any anti semitic incidents. This suggests that the locals didn't actually call Jews foreigners or vice versa but rather they did just call Jews Jews and it was changed elsewhere.

On the other points raised, I wish I could find a previous post I did and copy and paste it as it is the exact same point but wrt people asking what Jewish actually looks like, I did suggest that in our modern politically correct world we are terrified of ever saying anything that could even vaguely be considered racist, anti semitic or such like. As a result we shy away from saying what is true. I went to an event at a Jewish centre a few years ago. It was attended by many Jews and non Jews and to get to the point, it was very obvious on the whole who was Jewish and who wasn't. Of course it's not 100% accurate and there were plenty of people there who were Jewish but didn't look it and probably vice versa too. But let's not be silly, we all know what Jewish appearance looks like, and in many cases it would be true. No, it's not the be all and end all, no it's not 100% accurate, no I wouldn't bet my house on it and yes, of course there are exceptions but on the whole, I know what is meant by Jewish appearance.

As a final asside, we have many Polish people here in the North West. One of our local supermarkets is near to where many of them have settled and you hear many Polish and Eastern European voices when you are in there. I am pretty certain that I could identify 8-9 out of 10 people as Polish even though I couldn't tell you exactly what somebody Polish looks like! I was in there on Sunday and it is very clear who the Polish people are, it's just an instinct, it's just human nature.

And to pretend that it doesn't exist or that in any way it is symptomatic of anything sinister is stupid and even offensive.

regards,

Hello Tec,

I was interested to read your post and think you can very well draw a parallel between the jewish immigrants to the East End in the 1880s and the recent influx of eastern europeans. The Jews replaced the irish cockneys as the lowest in the pecking order - not sure who the eastern europeans replaced - perhaps the gypsies? There does seem to be an inherent need in the human race to feel "better" than someone. I once listened to a pair of Swedish drunks on the underground, each trying to impress the other, and the winner seemed to be the one who could say that his wife had the better job. "Bigger fleas have smaller fleas upon their backs to bite 'em etc".

Rumours of the ill-doings reputed to have been committed by those furthest down flourish and it is only a step from "these Jews/eastern europeans are always up to no good" to "He's up to no good, he must be a Jew/eastern european!". It is therefore easy to tar all foreigners with the same brush. My daughter-in-law's Swedish midwife, Swedish appearance, speaks perfect english, lived with her (Swedish) husband in Kent for sixteen years and happened to enter a pub speaking Swedish. The landlord immediately told them to get out, "we don't serve your sort in here". When she replied "What? Swedes?" everything was rosy again but I can't help wondering if their decision to move back to Sweden was influenced by this. People are discontented and want someone to blame and many of the "upper classes" are only too happy to encourage the idea that immigrants are to blame for everything wrong with society. I can't help feeling that this was the case in the east end in the 1880s.

Best wishes,
C4

[Paddy]

Gov'ner

As a cockney myself I recall this being used by shopkeepers or costermongers.
As said before to appease customers. Not to people higher but more to equals. I would say someone who offered a service would use this term.
Another address I recall was when someone asked a stranger a question they called them John ! I thought my dad knew the people and made him laugh...

As there were many Jewish people from Spain, Holland, Germany, Poland and Austria in the East End foreigners would probably have been a more correct term to use.

I recall from what my aunt told me that a lot of the Jewish people were smarter
dressed with their overcoats and hats.

Pat..........................................