Foreigners

[curious4]

Just a quick question. If the Eastenders referred to Jews as "foreigners", what did they call foreigners?

Best wishes,
C4

[MrBarnett]

Hi Curios,

A lot of the jews in the East End were recent immigrants, they dressed differently and if they spoke English at all it was with a very pronounced accent, so they were indeed 'foreigners' by any definition.

But your post raises an interesting general question about how easy it would have been for different ethnic groups to assimilate into East End society.

Easiest for white European protestants I would say; the Irish, although catholics also integrated within a generation, as evidenced by Charle Booth's use of the term 'Irish Cockneys'. I would imagine that long-settled jews ( i.e. of several generations) were looked upon as different but if they dressed and talked like cockneys, I'm not sure they would have been thought of as foreign.

MrB

[curious4]

Foreigners

Hi Curios,

A lot of the jews in the East End were recent immigrants, they dressed differently and if they spoke English at all it was with a very pronounced accent, so they were indeed 'foreigners' by any definition.

But your post raises an interesting general question about how easy it would have been for different ethnic groups to assimilate into East End society.

Easiest for white European protestants I would say; the Irish, although catholics also integrated within a generation, as evidenced by Charle Booth's use of the term 'Irish Cockneys'. I would imagine that long-settled jews ( i.e. of several generations) were looked upon as different but if they dressed and talked like cockneys, I'm not sure they would have been thought of as foreign.

MrB

Hello Mr B,

Yes, interesting observation. On the whole I think people assimilated fairly well into the East End, the latest comers always being lowest down in the pecking order of course.

What prompted the question was the account of the strange man on the stairs in Hanbury street. He was referred to as "a foreigner" and we are told that he must therefore have been Jewish and also Hutchinson's man, also referred to as a foreigner and also therefore presumed to be a Jew. Surely some references to foreigners must have referred to other nationalities. There were enough of them, after all!

Best wishes,
C4

[MrBarnett]

Hi Curious,

I suppose a 'foreign' accent must be the answer. I was about to say skin colour, but it occurred me that such a person would probably be described as 'a black man'.

Foreign clothes might also be a give-away or possibly facial features that looked 'unEnglish'.

MrB

[Errata]

The irony is that I've read a lot of Jewish literature, plays, diaries etc. with a lot of time given over to explaining anti semitic or anti foreign encounters, and not a single person has ever mentioned being called a foreigner. And Jewish playwrights especially were very candid about the names they were called. I don't think they were called foreigners. I think they were called exactly what they would be called today, since all of that slang was in use back then. I don't know why people interpret "foreign" as Jewish. Especially when talking about appearance. Jews look like Englishmen for the most part. They say its a euphemism, but I've never seen the euphemism used anywhere else. Which makes me think it's not a euphemism.

[Ginger]

I've long had the impression (and I may be wrong in this) that immigrants in the East End in the 1880s were overwhelmingly Jews from eastern Europe, and that these people formed a very distinct social and economic group.

Under the circumstances, I think that someone referring to a 'foreigner' in the East End would by implication mean a Jew, but one characterized (if not stigmatized) by their particular class and background rather than by their religion. Not properly a euphemism, as much as a term that carries inescapable implications in that time and place. Nor, really, a term that I'd expect an antisemite to use, as it doesn't emcompass the (presumably equally hated) assimilated English Jews.

[lynn cates]

Swiss

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks for starting this thread.

"What prompted the question was the account of the strange man on the stairs in Hanbury street. He was referred to as "a foreigner" and we are told that he must therefore have been Jewish."

But why Jewish? Why not a Swiss chap with an accent?

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Foreign?

Hello Lynn,

My point exactly, although identifying someone as Swiss on sight would be quite a feat. What is interesting about the Hanbury street man is that (I think it was) John Richardson was said to have addressed him as "guv'nor", something Jack London mentions, saying that as soon as he put on his "poor" clothes he was no longer so addressed.

My impression is that "foreigner" was used in the sense of "not from round 'ere!" There were, after all, many nationalities represented in the east end at the time, Swedes, French, Italian, Chinese, Dutch, Spanish etc, as well as asians (called Lascars I believe) and a sizable black population, even though the Jewish immigrants were the largest group of immigrants at the time.

So, feeling rather like the elephant's child, I keep on asking.

Best wishes,
Gwyneth/C4

[Observer]

But why Jewish? Why not a Swiss chap with an accent?

Why not a janitor from Japan ?
A freeloader from France ?
A Toreador from Turkestan ?

What's your point ? You deal in fact. How will we ever know who the strange foreigner sighted on the steps of 29 Hanbury Street was ? It's futile attempting to identify this man.

[curious4]

Point being

Why not a janitor from Japan ?
A freeloader from France ?
A Toreador from Turkestan ?

What's your point ? You deal in fact. How will we ever know who the strange foreigner sighted on the steps of 29 Hanbury Street was ? It's futile attempting to identify this man.

Hello Observer,

Point(s) being:

(1) Foreigner may not necessarily mean Jewish, as is widely claimed on the boards and in some JTR literature.

(2) Does calling him guv'nor point to him being of a higher class, slummer perhaps? If so, what was he doing there? Not waiting for the market - unlikely anyway.

Best wishes,
C4

[lynn cates]

Guv'nor

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

Agreed about the Swiss. Of course, the short pants and yodeling might be a give away. (heh-heh)

Guv'nor might just be a friendly term or it might indicate someone who was dressed a bit. But doubtful it was beyond shabby genteel.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Guv

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

Agreed about the Swiss. Of course, the short pants and yodeling might be a give away. (heh-heh)

Guv'nor might just be a friendly term or it might indicate someone who was dressed a bit. But doubtful it was beyond shabby genteel.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Guv, sorry, Lynn,

Jack London believed it was due to his clothing, and people today are often judged thusly - have personal experience of the difference between going out au naturelle versus all done up (although I like to think my natural good breeding shows through - no-one has ever thrown a coin at me).

So even a dressed down "posh" slummer might call forth a "guv'nor" from the natives.

Best wishes,
C4/Gwyneth

[curious]

Hello Guv, sorry, Lynn,

Jack London believed it was due to his clothing, and people today are often judged thusly - have personal experience of the difference between going out au naturell versus all done up (although I like to think my natural good breeding shows through - no-one has ever thrown a coin at me).

So even a dressed down "posh" slummer might call forth a "guv'nor" from the natives.

Best wishes,
C4/Gwynetj

Now these are interesting obsevations . . .
thanks,

curious

[Cogidubnus]

1a ?

Oh Gwyneth

from an online dictionary:-

au na·tu·rel ( nch-rl, ō nä-tü-rl)
adj.
1.a. Nude.
b. In a natural state: an au naturel hairstyle.
2. Cooked simply.

[French : au, in the + naturel, natural (state).]

Now you've really got me going...for what it's worth I wouldn't throw coins at you either!

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

shabby genteel

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

So, shabby genteel it is.

Cheers.
LC