Jack's Escape Route?

[Herlock Sholmes]

But the killer could not have murdered, mutilated, rifled her pockets cut a piece of apron carefully nicked the eye lids and removed these organs in 3 minutes. As I keep saying Sequeaira gave that interview before the post mortem had been carried out, and you have deliberatly ignored the issue of the lighting at that part of the square for him to be able to clearly see what he was doing which would have been an issue with the loacting of the organs in he first instance.


www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Ive never understand why you persist in making this point Trevor? Here is Dr. Sequiera making exactly that point at the inquest - which of course was after the Post Mortem. So he knew that there were organs missing at the time that he said it.


“Dr. G. W. Sequeira, surgeon, of No. 34, Jewry-street, Aldgate, deposed: On the morning of Sept. 30 I was called to Mitre-square, and I arrived at five minutes to two o'clock, being the first medical man on the scene of the murder. I saw the position of the body, and I entirely agree with the evidence of Dr. Gordon Brown in that respect.
By Mr. Crawford: I am well acquainted with the locality and the position of the lamps in the square. Where the murder was committed was probably the darkest part of the square, but there was sufficient light to enable the miscreant to perpetrate the deed.“

[Trevor Marriott]

Ive never understand why you persist in making this point Trevor? Here is Dr. Sequiera making exactly that point at the inquest - which of course was after the Post Mortem. So he knew that there were organs missing at the time that he said it.


“Dr. G. W. Sequeira, surgeon, of No. 34, Jewry-street, Aldgate, deposed: On the morning of Sept. 30 I was called to Mitre-square, and I arrived at five minutes to two o'clock, being the first medical man on the scene of the murder. I saw the position of the body, and I entirely agree with the evidence of Dr. Gordon Brown in that respect.
By Mr. Crawford: I am well acquainted with the locality and the position of the lamps in the square. Where the murder was committed was probably the darkest part of the square, but there was sufficient light to enable the miscreant to perpetrate the deed.“

And I can never undestand why you argue for the sake of arguing when the facts are quiet clear.

Of course they knew organs were missing at the inquest because the post mortem had been conducted prior to the inquest taking place but there was no examination of the body at the crime scene which showed organs had been taken.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

And I can never undestand why you argue for the sake of arguing when the facts are quiet clear.

Of course they knew organs were missing at the inquest because the post mortem had been conducted prior to the inquest taking place but there was no examination of the body at the crime scene which showed organs had been taken.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Please leave the goalposts where they were Trevor. Your claim was that Sequiera couldn’t have included the removal of the organs in his 3 minute estimation because he gave his estimation before the Post Mortem had taken place; therefore before it wasn’t known that they were missing so he hadn’t included the removal in his estimation.

Ive shown that you are wrong. He mentioned his 3 minute estimation at the Inquest. So the PM had obviously already taken place which meant that Sequiera knew that the organs were missing when he made his estimate. Therefore he clearly included the removal of organs within his 3 minute estimate.

[Joshua Rogan]

As I keep saying Sequeaira gave that interview before the post mortem had been carried out

You do keep saying this, despite there being no evidence that this was the case. It has been pointed out that the interview wasn't published until 24 hours after the post mortem had taken place and thus, to coin a phrase, the evidence that you seek to rely on is unsafe.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve had a thought.

If Sequiera had been interviewed prior to the Inquest (as Trevor claims, based on no evidence as far as I can see) and had estimated 3 minutes…..

And if when asked at the inquest (after the PM) he still estimated 3 minutes (which must have included the removal of the organs because the PM had taken place by then)

Therefore, if he estimated 3 minutes before the PM and then he reiterated his 3 minute estimate after the PM then shouldn’t we conclude that Sequiera must have known that there were organs missing before the PM took place? Or else his estimate at the inquest would have been greater than the earlier one.

[Fleetwood Mac]

After all, the police also seems to have thought the murderer did all that was done to Catherine, and there’s absolutely no evidence at all that they, even if briefly, entertained the notion that there was a second person who took the organs from her body at the mortuary.[/FONT][/FONT]

In this situation, Frank, i.e. the 1.35 am to 1.44am timeframe, I don't think there's much use in placing faith in what the police did or didn't believe. They didn't know which way to turn for answers and whatever they concluded relating to that timeframe, your guess is as good as theirs.

When you consider the following:

1) The couple had to leave Church Passage immediately after Lawende and associates passed which is not a given judging by their demeanour, and in the event that was the murderer then why are they standing talking at the passage corner?

2) In the event he left just before Watkins arrived, then you have to believe he went unseen in the immediate area as Morris blew his whistle and policemen were arriving.

3) He cut and took a piece of the apron with him. That suggests it wasn't someone who left in a hurry.

4) You would have to believe he wasn't perturbed by Morris opening his door across a square 75ft by 75ft.

5) You would have to believe that he wasn't perturbed by PC Harvey walking down Church Passage.

6) You would have to believe he was able to rush Catherine in terms of time taken to get into the corner of the square and into the right position for him, and you have to believe he deemed it necessary to go to work with the utmost urgency when really there was no reason for him to believe that, i.e. to believe that PC Watkins would enter the square at 1.44am.

When you take each one as an isolated event, then of course they are all possible. When you consider the entire scenario, however, it seems a stretch.

I lay no claim to knowing what the answer is, but I do feel there's a rabbit away with the official version and perceived wisdom. The simplest solution may be that the couple weren't Catherine and her murderer.

[FrankO]

In this situation, Frank, i.e. the 1.35 am to 1.44am timeframe, I don't think there's much use in placing faith in what the police did or didn't believe. They didn't know which way to turn for answers and whatever they concluded relating to that timeframe, your guess is as good as theirs.

While I'm not really disputing this, you should tell this to Trevor, Fleetwood. Again, I was reacting to the faith Trevor has in the police because they seem to have believed the couple were Catherine & her murderer and, Trevor says, since there's no evidence against this notion, we have to accept that the couple was, in fact, Catherine & her murderer. I only said that, if that is a line of thinking, we should also accept that the murderer did all that was done to Catherine for the reason I gave.

When you consider the following:

1) The couple had to leave Church Passage immediately after Lawende and associates passed which is not a given judging by their demeanour, and in the event that was the murderer then why are they standing talking at the passage corner?

2) In the event he left just before Watkins arrived, then you have to believe he went unseen in the immediate area as Morris blew his whistle and policemen were arriving.

3) He cut and took a piece of the apron with him. That suggests it wasn't someone who left in a hurry.

4) You would have to believe he wasn't perturbed by Morris opening his door across a square 75ft by 75ft.

5) You would have to believe that he wasn't perturbed by PC Harvey walking down Church Passage.

6) You would have to believe he was able to rush Catherine in terms of time taken to get into the corner of the square and into the right position for him, and you have to believe he deemed it necessary to go to work with the utmost urgency when really there was no reason for him to believe that, i.e. to believe that PC Watkins would enter the square at 1.44am.

When you take each one as an isolated event, then of course they are all possible. When you consider the entire scenario, however, it seems a stretch.

Of course, if it were Catherine & her murderer, then the murderer would have had reason to move to 'a dark corner' as soon as Lawende & Co. had passed, and, unless he'd seen Watkins & Harvey shortly before on their respective beats and knew exactly how much time he had in that 'dark corner' before they would disturb him, he had to move (attack, kill & mutilate) as quickly as he could and keep his eyes and ears open. Whether he would have been/felt perturbed by Morris or Harvey would depend on how cool he was, but we have no way of knowing this. The bottom line is that Catherine wasn't there when Watkins made his round in the square at about 1.30, but she was there at around 1.44 (give or take a minute, or perhaps 2). And at the end of the day, each of us has to decide for themselves whether to believe the couple was or wasn't Catherine & her murderer.

[Fleetwood Mac]

While I'm not really disputing this, you should tell this to Trevor, Fleetwood. Again, I was reacting to the faith Trevor has in the police because they seem to have believed the couple were Catherine & her murderer and, Trevor says, since there's no evidence against this notion, we have to accept that the couple was, in fact, Catherine & her murderer. I only said that, if that is a line of thinking, we should also accept that the murderer did all that was done to Catherine for the reason I gave.

No bother, Frank. I for one think it can confidently be stated that the police didn't know very much at all.

Of course, if it were Catherine & her murderer, then the murderer would have had reason to move to 'a dark corner' as soon as Lawende & Co. had passed

Assuming this is the case and speed was of the essence, why didn't they enter the square before Lawende and associates approached?

Whether he would have been/felt perturbed by Morris or Harvey would depend on how cool he was, but we have no way of knowing this.

It is true that we have no way of knowing, but that sentiment doesn't negate the proposition that it all adds up to being a stretch.

[Parisi North Humber]

"Hang in there Bro, there aren't many of us perfect blokes left. "

Absolutely George...however I wouldn't stretch as far as perfect! I would counter with charming and decent gentlemen . After all "perfection is at its best tedium" as one of many quotes dictate and none of you are tedious/boring lol.

Helen x

[Trevor Marriott]

I’ve had a thought.

If Sequiera had been interviewed prior to the Inquest (as Trevor claims, based on no evidence as far as I can see) and had estimated 3 minutes…..

And if when asked at the inquest (after the PM) he still estimated 3 minutes (which must have included the removal of the organs because the PM had taken place by then)

Therefore, if he estimated 3 minutes before the PM and then he reiterated his 3 minute estimate after the PM then shouldn’t we conclude that Sequiera must have known that there were organs missing before the PM took place? Or else his estimate at the inquest would have been greater than the earlier one.

Sequeira mentions no time scale in his official signed inquest testimony so his 3 mins referred to must have been given to the press the night of the murder

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[GBinOz]

Please leave the goalposts where they were Trevor. Your claim was that Sequiera couldn’t have included the removal of the organs in his 3 minute estimation because he gave his estimation before the Post Mortem had taken place; therefore before it wasn’t known that they were missing so he hadn’t included the removal in his estimation.

Ive shown that you are wrong. He mentioned his 3 minute estimation at the Inquest. So the PM had obviously already taken place which meant that Sequiera knew that the organs were missing when he made his estimate. Therefore he clearly included the removal of organs within his 3 minute estimate.

From Prosector:

"Of all the doctors involved, the one I respect least is Dr Sequeira. He had only been qualified for two years with the lowest practicing qualification possible (LSA - although he later got the MRCS), he was not a police surgeon (and therefore had little or no autopsy experience and, as far as I know, he only turned up to confirm death and was not present at the autopsy so how would he have known how much skill had been displayed?) Phillips was by far the most experienced doctor involved in the Ripper cases (and I include Bond in that) and Brown was the next. They both thought that JTR had both anatomical knowledge and some degree of surgical skill."

[Herlock Sholmes]

Sequeira mentions no time scale in his official signed inquest testimony so his 3 mins referred to must have been given to the press the night of the murder

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Do we have the entirety of his inquest testimony?

[Trevor Marriott]

From Prosector:

"Of all the doctors involved, the one I respect least is Dr Sequeira. He had only been qualified for two years with the lowest practicing qualification possible (LSA - although he later got the MRCS), he was not a police surgeon (and therefore had little or no autopsy experience and, as far as I know, he only turned up to confirm death and was not present at the autopsy so how would he have known how much skill had been displayed?) Phillips was by far the most experienced doctor involved in the Ripper cases (and I include Bond in that) and Brown was the next. They both thought that JTR had both anatomical knowledge and some degree of surgical skill."

FAO Herlock
I have the signed inquest testimony and I can assure you that in that Sequeira mentions no time scale !!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[GBinOz]

"Hang in there Bro, there aren't many of us perfect blokes left. "

Absolutely George...however I wouldn't stretch as far as perfect! I would counter with charming and decent gentlemen . After all "perfection is at its best tedium" as one of many quotes dictate and none of you are tedious/boring lol.

Helen x

Thank you Helen for your kind remarks.

Prompted by Dave's suggestion I have started reading Prosector's threads. This one is of particular interest:

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/motive-method-and-madness/7907-did-he-have-anatomical-knowledge#post376239

It is a great loss that he is no longer active on this forum.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

FAO Herlock
I have the signed inquest testimony and I can assure you that in that Sequeira mentions no time scale !!!!!!!!!!!!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I only asked if the full testimony was available or a part of it?