The door, the key and the pickaxe

[Varqm]

All that is required is the will to do so. Based on whose will, and at what time is the question.

Barnett said it was easy. If that room did not have a dead mutilated woman, instead it had a chest full of diamonds they would have figured out how to open that door through the broken window pane in 1 minute.

[Varqm]

No-one is denying that, but that 'someone' would have to know what Barnett knew. That is the problem.



They were looking into a dark room, the lock may not have been obvious, and the catch (basically, a button), was even smaller. You slide the button forward or backward to release the spring.
As I keep saying, the police believed the door was locked, not that it was on some kind of spring-latch. You couldn't unlock a door with the latch (button), that was only to release the spring lock. You need a key to unlock a locked door.

It was Barnett who eventually informed Abberline that there was no key, subsequently the door was held closed by a spring-latch.
I think you've been assuming too much.



Isn't that similar to your approach?
You are also assuming anyone could open the door, like 'everyone knew it was on a spring-latch' - they didn't, thats the point I'm making.

My point is there was no need to analyze, the broken window was in arms length to the door and therefore the lock could be reached. They just did not want to is my view. Your view was a possibility, but we do not know if it came to somebody's mind or not .

[Wickerman]

...... If youre argument is that this would have been difficult for anyone to figure out within 2.5 hours then its a very weak one.

I already posted that the police were not looking for an alternate means of entry, they were told to wait, so that is all they did.

To my eye the forcible entry might be to allay concerns that anyone had entered the room before 1:30....and I think the photographer may have been allowed to.

We are told the photographer was permitted entry following a brief investigation of the room, which took place subsequent to the door being forced.

[Michael W Richards]

They were looking into a dark room, the lock may not have been obvious, and the catch (basically, a button), was even smaller. You slide the button forward or backward to release the spring. As I keep saying, the police believed the door was locked, not that it was on some kind of spring-latch. You couldn't unlock a door with the latch (button), that was only to release the spring lock. You need a key to unlock a locked door.

The room wasnt dark in the middle of the day if you moved the muslin curtains, which we know Bowyer did..by reaching in through the broken section of glass. So it would be just that easy to see what kind of lock was in place and spring latches were all over the place. If youre argument is that this would have been difficult for anyone to figure out within 2.5 hours then its a very weak one. The choice was made to wait. And not for the bloodhounds, thats a non starter. And the choice was made to forcibly enter the room, it was not required.

To my eye the forcible entry might be to allay concerns that anyone had entered the room before 1:30....and I think the photographer may have been allowed to.

[Wickerman]

It does not change anything, if Barnett could open it anybody could.

No-one is denying that, but that 'someone' would have to know what Barnett knew. That is the problem.

The distance from the broken window pane to the possible location of the lock could be "measured/eyeballed", see if it's within an arm's length in a short time. Wrap their arms with something if they had to.

They were looking into a dark room, the lock may not have been obvious, and the catch (basically, a button), was even smaller. You slide the button forward or backward to release the spring.
As I keep saying, the police believed the door was locked, not that it was on some kind of spring-latch. You couldn't unlock a door with the latch (button), that was only to release the spring lock. You need a key to unlock a locked door.

It was Barnett who eventually informed Abberline that there was no key, subsequently the door was held closed by a spring-latch.
I think you've been assuming too much.

As I said in a previous post on this thread, and I'm assuming you have not read it, the police were too busy doing something else, cordon the area,, sequester/interview the Miller's court witnesses, etc., that they just thought fck it why bother lets just force it.

Isn't that similar to your approach?
You are also assuming anyone could open the door, like 'everyone knew it was on a spring-latch' - they didn't, thats the point I'm making.

[Michael W Richards]

Ok, lets try another angle. The windows. They were locked when the room was formally entered. Did the killer then leave while holding the door narrowly open so he could manipulate the table behind it into being an obstacle when someone tried to open it? Its said a table was the obstacle when "forcing" it open. One wonders how many PC's it takes to push a 4 legged wooden table back across a wooden floor.

[Michael W Richards]

The police was at the scene around 11:00 am, the door was forcibly opened at at around 1:30 PM. I do not believe that a person reaching in through the broken window pane, by guessing and trying, could not find that lock in 2 hours.

All that is required is the will to do so. Based on whose will, and at what time is the question.

[Varqm]

Guessing?, stick your arm through a jagged glass hole into a dark void thinking you might feel the lock behind the door?

It isn't a case of 'guessing' where the lock was, the police suspected the door had been locked with a key, not that it was held shut by a spring latch. So 'guessing' didn't enter in to it.
I'll grant you it wasn't totally dark, Bowyer, McCarthy, Beck & Phillips were able to see the table & the body on the bed, but the lock on the door was a small item and the button that you slide from lock to unlock was about the size of a penny coin.

Alternately, who in the yard 'knew' the lock was only on a spring, and could be reached from the broken window?
Clearly McCarthy didn't, and what transpired would indicate Barnett had not arrived by 1:30, or he would/should have told someone. He didn't make a secret of the alternate means of entry, he told Abberline in an interview.
Abberline: "Barnett informs me that it (the key) has been missing some time, and since it has been lost they have put their hand through the broken window, and moved back the catch. It is quite easy."
So obviously Barnett was not present when McCarthy forced the door, therefore, no-one knew how to compromise the lock, it was just assumed the door had been locked with a key.
Which is why no-one considered an alternate means of entry, hence Supt. Arnold's decision to force the door.

It does not change anything, if Barnett could open it anybody could. The distance from the broken window pane to the possible location of the lock could be "measured/eyeballed", see if it's within an arm's length in a short time. Wrap their arms with something if they had to.
As I said in a previous post on this thread, and I'm assuming you have not read it, the police were too busy doing something else, cordon the area,, sequester/interview the Miller's court witnesses, etc., that they just thought fck it why bother lets just force it.

[Wickerman]

You got lost. If you look back at the previous posts I said the police just decided fck it lets just force it and not try reaching for it,the broken window in plain sight, I said maybe because of blood and flesh in the lock.
You're argument was it was dark and I'm saying that was not a reason.
If Barnett\Kelly could it meant the lock was in arm's length, so anybody could open it by guessing and trying.

Guessing?, stick your arm through a jagged glass hole into a dark void thinking you might feel the lock behind the door?

It isn't a case of 'guessing' where the lock was, the police suspected the door had been locked with a key, not that it was held shut by a spring latch. So 'guessing' didn't enter in to it.
I'll grant you it wasn't totally dark, Bowyer, McCarthy, Beck & Phillips were able to see the table & the body on the bed, but the lock on the door was a small item and the button that you slide from lock to unlock was about the size of a penny coin.

Alternately, who in the yard 'knew' the lock was only on a spring, and could be reached from the broken window?
Clearly McCarthy didn't, and what transpired would indicate Barnett had not arrived by 1:30, or he would/should have told someone. He didn't make a secret of the alternate means of entry, he told Abberline in an interview.
Abberline: "Barnett informs me that it (the key) has been missing some time, and since it has been lost they have put their hand through the broken window, and moved back the catch. It is quite easy."
So obviously Barnett was not present when McCarthy forced the door, therefore, no-one knew how to compromise the lock, it was just assumed the door had been locked with a key.
Which is why no-one considered an alternate means of entry, hence Supt. Arnold's decision to force the door.

[Varqm]

First of all, they weren't 'looking for a way in' for 2 hours. They had been told to stand around and wait, which is what they all did.
It was only when Arnold arrived, and he gave the order to enter the room that the door was forced. Which indicates no-one gave any thought to some alternate means of entry.
Really, its that simple.

You got lost. If you look back at the previous posts I said the police just decided fck it lets just force it and not try reaching for it,the broken window in plain sight, I said maybe because of blood and flesh in the lock.
You're argument was it was dark and I'm saying that was not a reason.
If Barnett\Kelly could it meant the lock was in arm's length, so anybody could open it by guessing and trying.

[Kattrup]

First of all, they weren't 'looking for a way in' for 2 hours. They had been told to stand around and wait, which is what they all did.
It was only when Arnold arrived, and he gave the order to enter the room that the door was forced. Which indicates no-one gave any thought to some alternate means of entry.
Really, its that simple.

Sorry Wickerman, when you’re wearing your tinfoil hat everything is complicated and requires a nefarious explanation.

[Wickerman]

The police was at the scene around 11:00 am, the door was forcibly opened at at around 1:30 PM. I do not believe that a person reaching in through the broken window pane, by guessing and trying, could not find that lock in 2 hours.

First of all, they weren't 'looking for a way in' for 2 hours. They had been told to stand around and wait, which is what they all did.
It was only when Arnold arrived, and he gave the order to enter the room that the door was forced. Which indicates no-one gave any thought to some alternate means of entry.
Really, its that simple.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman,

A Bulldog lantern would have soon sorted out the position of the lock.

Regards,

Simon

Simon, the collective 'We', do not know how large the hole was in the glass, in order to pass the lantern through. Then, how do you see through when your arm is filling the entire hole?
Naturally, I am assuming the window panes had not been cleaned in donkey's years - reasonable?

The lock would have to be reached with a left arm, as a consequence your head is outside with the left side of your face against the bricks, and your nose pressed up against the drain pipe. You can't see into the room, and neither can anyone else stood behind you.
So, holding a lantern into the room is pointless.

Did you ever see Bob Hinton's recreation of the relationship between the window and the door? This was back in the early 90's, he posted pictures of the period-type of Spring Lock in the same thread.
He found a building of the same time-period as Dorset St. and measured the size of the bricks & the width of the cement line between the bricks. It is possible to count the number of bricks in the outside photo of Kelly's room, from this he recreated the relationship between the lock and the nearest window pane.
At the time I was using Autocad at work and was able to use his data to draw a scale model which confirmed his analysis.

I hope I've got the name right, I think it was Bob.

All that said, the police could have removed the window altogether, which is what the Times reported. So if that was true, why didn't they reach to open the lock now that the window was out of the way?
Likely because it wasn't true.

[Varqm]

Barnett was only smart enough to figure it out because he knew where the spring lock was in relation to the window, I suggest no-one could see how close the lock was because the room was still too dark.

The police was at the scene around 11:00 am, the door was forcibly opened at at around 1:30 PM. I do not believe that a person reaching in through the broken window pane, by guessing and trying, could not find that lock in 2 hours.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Wickerman,

A Bulldog lantern would have soon sorted out the position of the lock.

Regards,

Simon