The door, the key and the pickaxe

[Wickerman]

Yeah. Warren's was official,

I was actually alluding to the possibility that this was not Warren's mistake, but Anderson's. That Warren was only repeating what he had been told, not what he had learned?
This being the difference between information coming up from the streets (learned), or coming down from above (told).

[Varqm]

I though this bit interesting in that article link, "A story which explains this, although it is at variance with the newspaper accounts, is that although the Metropolitan Police didn't dare to disobey Warren's order and break down Kelly's doorway before the bloodhounds arrived, the City Police did so as they ran no such risks. Apparently as the morning dragged on, and nothing happened in Miller's Court, somebody quietly asked the City Police for their help which they gave by breaking into Kelly's room and taking the photograph of her body as their only justification for doing so. Certainly all the surviving photographs of Ripper victims were taken by the City of London Police. Curiously enough, they may have taken others."

I wondered when the pictures were taken, perhaps during that period between discovery and the formal and forceful entry to the room. 2 1/2 hours standing around that room doing nothing doesnt ring true for me.

Inspector Frederick G. Abberline, inspector of police, Criminal Investigation Department, Scotland-yard, stated: I am in charge of this case. I arrived at Miller's-court about 11.30 on Friday morning.
[Coroner] Was it by your orders that the door was forced ? - No; I had an intimation from Inspector Beck that the bloodhounds had been sent for, and the reply had been received that they were on the way. Dr. Phillips was unwilling to force the door, as it would be very much better to test the dogs, if they were coming. We remained until about 1.30 p.m.,
" when Superintendent Arnold arrived, and he informed me that the order in regard to the dogs had been countermanded, and he gave orders for the door to be forced."

[Varqm]

I think the last document he signed officially was the Pardon Offer. Which, for me, is almost certainly due to Sarah Lewis and the unknown Wideawake Man. A lookout would have been advantageous in any of these murders.

Is there anything that indicated it was due to Lewis?

[Michael W Richards]

https://www.casebook.org/dissertatio...ly.html?show=2

The quoted Rumbelow extract mentions the bloodhounds and the breaking down of the Kelly's doorway by the City Police!

Thought I throw this into the mix just for jolly!

I though this bit interesting in that article link, "A story which explains this, although it is at variance with the newspaper accounts, is that although the Metropolitan Police didn't dare to disobey Warren's order and break down Kelly's doorway before the bloodhounds arrived, the City Police did so as they ran no such risks. Apparently as the morning dragged on, and nothing happened in Miller's Court, somebody quietly asked the City Police for their help which they gave by breaking into Kelly's room and taking the photograph of her body as their only justification for doing so. Certainly all the surviving photographs of Ripper victims were taken by the City of London Police. Curiously enough, they may have taken others."

I wondered when the pictures were taken, perhaps during that period between discovery and the formal and forceful entry to the room. 2 1/2 hours standing around that room doing nothing doesnt ring true for me.

[mpriestnall]

https://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-kelly.html?show=2

The quoted Rumbelow extract mentions the bloodhounds and the breaking down of the Kelly's doorway by the City Police!

Thought I throw this into the mix just for jolly!

[Michael W Richards]

Warren was not officially out of office Nov.9.

I think the last document he signed officially was the Pardon Offer. Which, for me, is almost certainly due to Sarah Lewis and the unknown Wideawake Man. A lookout would have been advantageous in any of these murders.

[Varqm]

Warren was not officially out of office Nov.9.

[erobitha]

With regards to the bloodhounds was it not as simple as requiring Warren's permission, which was difficult to get as nobody could contact him? His resignation the day prior certainly did not help matters as the news was starting to filter down the ranks. There may have been some confusion on whether he was still authorised to approve the use or not?

[Varqm]

Another possible reason they did not want to reach through the broken window pane was the lock might had some blood or fleshy material in it?

[Michael W Richards]

If you're presenting the world with a locked-room mystery, the only solution is to break down the door.

Nice to see you posting Simon. I hope all is well with you, havent spoken in a while. Kind of Holmesian premise isnt it? The locked room mystery, including the windows. Which raises a point with me, if he left via the door and set the spring latch to lock when closed, then how could the table impede the in-swinging of the door when they tried to enter? Exactly what neccesitated forced entry? If the table alone, then it surely would move when the door butted up against it.

Was this all just drama?

[mpriestnall]

That's the image the situation is presented as and everyone thinks of- JM bashing the door in. But a more likely scenario was posited on one of the Rippercast episodes. A pickaxe has TWO sides, and McCarthy probably used the OTHER end as a crowbar to force the lock, which was broken anyway. Easier and less expensive to replace the lock and perhaps repair the frame than the whole bloody door. Has ANYONE ever thought of asking a carpenter how they would do it?

No great mystery as to how Jack got through EITHER way- Kelly let him in and it was probably one of those self-latching locks on the inside, so when Jack left he just opened the door and it automatically locked when he closed the door. The odd thing is that this sort of lock would have been REALLY common, but apparently when it WAS decided to fo in, no one seems to have THOUGHT of reaching in and unlatching the door. Or perhaps someone did, but the broken pane wasn't large enough for anyone there to reach in without injury from the broken glass. Or perhaps Barnett just doesn't mention the "grabber' that they used.

The bloodhounds EXISTED, they just were unavailable.

You would have thought it wouldn't have been a problem for the long arms of the law. Ok, I get my coat...

[mpriestnall]

I will mull it over for sure!

Maybe one for the Crutched Friar?

Sure and sure.

[C. F. Leon]

"Here's Johnny"...

That's the image the situation is presented as and everyone thinks of- JM bashing the door in. But a more likely scenario was posited on one of the Rippercast episodes. A pickaxe has TWO sides, and McCarthy probably used the OTHER end as a crowbar to force the lock, which was broken anyway. Easier and less expensive to replace the lock and perhaps repair the frame than the whole bloody door. Has ANYONE ever thought of asking a carpenter how they would do it?

No great mystery as to how Jack got through EITHER way- Kelly let him in and it was probably one of those self-latching locks on the inside, so when Jack left he just opened the door and it automatically locked when he closed the door. The odd thing is that this sort of lock would have been REALLY common, but apparently when it WAS decided to fo in, no one seems to have THOUGHT of reaching in and unlatching the door. Or perhaps someone did, but the broken pane wasn't large enough for anyone there to reach in without injury from the broken glass. Or perhaps Barnett just doesn't mention the "grabber' that they used.

The bloodhounds EXISTED, they just were unavailable.

[Ms Diddles]

Looking forward to your thoughts re post #39 or any other ideas re the dogs and the forced door entry.

I will mull it over for sure!

Maybe one for the Crutched Friar?

[mpriestnall]

That's food for thought!

Am just trying to wrap my head around all the possible implications and ramifications of this....

That can take me a while!!!!

Looking forward to your thoughts re post #39 or any other ideas re the dogs and the forced door entry.