Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Who has the goods?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Varqm
    replied
    Neil could hear Thain from a distance longer than IWEC to Commercial road, the pony is louder. Even before Diemschutz
    turn left from Commercial Road into Berner st, its from there JTR decides whether it's going to Berner street or not in
    the first place. There was sufficient light in Berner street. From his testimony Lamb could see from Commercial Rd.,
    if somebody was running on the other end towards Fairclough but not the man's features.

    By the time Diemschutz turn left into Berner St., it's too late. Although possible and more intriguing, it's hard to believe JTR was stuck
    in there when Diemschutz and pony went inside the gates. In my opinion it was Goldstein, more so if he looked inside the IWEC as there were
    still people singing, or somebody/something inside the IWEC that spooked him.
    By the time Diemschutz arrived in the corner of Commercial rd/Berner st. JTR was gone already by possibly a minute or 2.
    Or even he run as soon as he heard the pony even before Diemschutz reached the corner, maybe he made some kind of connection between the wagon and the only place in Berner St.with inhabitants still awake and singing.
    Last edited by Varqm; 09-19-2021, 12:58 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • GBinOz
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
    I’ve always thought that behind the gates would have been the likeliest.
    Hi Herlock,

    Me again. If we only focus on an interuption due to the horse and cart approaching and the killer being JtR, he has just cut Stride's throat and needs a place to hide until the cart does or doesn't pass, a split second decision. Does he go towards the threat or away from it? Would it be more incriminating to be discovered hiding behind the gate or using the conveniences in the toilet block? FWIW, I tend to lean towards the latter.

    Cheers, George

    Leave a comment:


  • GBinOz
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
    My other point would be that Diemschutz specifically said that he took his time from the tobacconist’s clock whereas Lamb gives an estimated time therefore the suggestion that he used the same clock is only an assumption.

    Neither of us (I believe) suspect Diemschutz of lying but errors can occur of course. Diemschutz did sound confident though.
    Hi Herlock,

    Diemshitz was quoting a time for an alleged clock sighting. Lamb was quoting times after he had left the clock so they had to be estimates but, as Monty says, an important part of their job was time estimates. Lamb is quoting small estimate differences because he viewed the clock recently, and Smith is quoting a larger range (12:30 to 12:35) because it is a longer time since he has looked at the clock. It would be unrealistic to assume that a PC would have a 5 minute error in an estimate of time of six to seven minutes since he saw the clock. The time difference in the arrival of Johnson and Blackwell that I noted in my previous post shows that their house clock and Blackwell's pocket watch were not synchronised, but the house clock seems to have been in close agreement with the tobacconist clock.

    The police stations of that era synchronised their time via the telegraph and, as shown in my previous post, times deduced from the testimony of Reid and Phillips also fit with Lamb's time from the tobacconist clock. Schwartz passed the tobacconist clock and if a synchronisation correction is applied to Mortimer's times so that they fit with her hearing Smith pass at about 12:33, then we have an explanation of why she just missed seeing both Stride and Schwartz.

    You make the point that the constables were human. So was Diemshitz, and the Coroner may have formed that opinion. I don't know if Diemshitz was lying or just firming up, for the inquest, the time he usually arrive at the yard. I place no stock in guess-estimates based on long ago clock sightings or pub closings, and have removed them from my consideration. I look at Blackwell's apparently unsynchronisied pocket watch and Diemshitz's alleged clock sighting against the times from Lamb, Smith and the Police stations and choose the later. I'm not saying this to promote any conspiracy theory, I'm just saying the times fit.

    Cheers, George

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Hi Herlock,

    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    Hi Jeff,

    Its a fair point, as Fiver said, but couldn’t it have been the case that it might not just have been the sound of a horse and cart but a horse and cart slowing down? As it was the early hours of the morning I’m assuming that traffic would have been light to almost non-existent so a horse and cart might have gotten his attention rather more than it would have done during the day? He knew that he was standing near wide open double gates and he might even have been aware that there were stables in that yard. So might he not have just ‘pricked up his ears’ when he heard the cart approaching and paused until he could have been sure that it passed by. At some point though he realised that it was slowing down and so he had to hide. I’ve always thought that behind the gates would have been the likeliest.

    But because of the mention of the side door being open I think that it’s also worth considering that this might have ‘interrupted’ the killer. Whether it was someone crossing the yard to the loo or someone opening the door to let in a bit of air?

    It also might have been the case that the killer wasn’t the ripper of course.
    I don't think the pony and cart is going to do much slowing down until the pony is almost right at the ally entrance. They don't go all that fast after all. As for hiding behind the gate, I don't know, that would depend upon what kind of gate they were. If they're just a set of bars, they wouldn't be all that concealing, but if they're solid wood, then yes I suppose that would work. But wouldn't they be fastened to the wall to prevent them swinging shut? That's a lot of fumbling in the dark, and the gate would make a tell-tale movement when he moved it away from the wall to get behind. A lot of what I'm suggesting here is speculation on how the gates are set up, obviously, and I don't know any details about them - perhaps there is information on the nature of the gate construction that I'm unaware of and my concerns are unnecessary.

    I could see him moving away, to avoid being seen by a passing cart, and if so, perhaps he was in a position that he could find a place to hide when it became obvious the pony was pulling into the yard. Deimshutz, behind on the cart, and in the dark, would have his view somewhat obstructed after all.

    Still, it seems far less complicated if something like the opening of the club door, maybe just to let air into the kitchen, was the event that made him leave, but something before Deimshutz's arrival seems plausible. Maybe as he was strangling her, the door opens, nobody comes out, so he cuts her throat and bolts type thing (kills her so she can't identify him as nobody has come out, and gets out of the area? - just thinking as I type this, so I'm sure that's not a great idea). Anyway, I think there's ample opportunity for something to have occurred that caused JtR to leave before Deimshutz shows up, and that is a much less complicated situation, it seems the more probable to me. Him being there when Deimshutz shows up involves a lot more reliance on luck for JtR, and depends upon a lot of information that (as far as I know) we do not have, so must speculate on. Doesn't mean it's not possible, but I don't see it as probable. (note, if Stride's not a victim of JtR, I think it far more likely he was long gone before Deimshutz arrives - my talking about JtR exclusively here was just because that's the case that requires something other than the killing of Stride to induce him leaving the scene. A non-JtR killer would just leave at that point, regardless).

    - Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    My other point would be that Diemschutz specifically said that he took his time from the tobacconist’s clock whereas Lamb gives an estimated time therefore the suggestion that he used the same clock is only an assumption. I’m not suggesting that he couldn’t have of course but the fact remains. I don’t know how many clocks Lamb would have seen on his round but maybe for consistency he might have judged his time by the same couple of clocks on each round? Maybe he didn’t trust the tobacconist shops clock as accurate as it had been proven to have been inaccurate in the past? A couple of serious ‘maybe’s’ there of course.

    Neither of us (I believe) suspect Diemschutz of lying but errors can occur of course. Diemschutz did sound confident though.

    Leave a comment:


  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

    Lamb had passed the tobacconist's clock only six to seven minutes before arriving at the yard, but he is already acknowledging that he didn't have a watch so was estimating. "Shortly before one o'clock" is the time PC Lamb gave for when he was contacted. This is an even shorter time from when he passed the tobacconist clock. I remain unconvinced that Lamb's estimate could be around five minutes out on a time of six to seven minutes or less. The standard rebuttal for this is that as a police officer, who Monty says were very concerned with time, he would have averted his eyes as he passed the tobacconist's clock.
    Surely George no one is suggesting that Lamb deliberately averted his eyes? All that I would perhaps suggest is that Constable were human and it’s also the case that they didn’t simply walk around. There would have been distractions during any round. I can say nothing for certain but can we be certain that Lamb couldn’t have been distracted by someone or something? I’m only suggesting a possibility.

    Just a point. Wouldn’t the police or those at the Inquest have raised this point? Perhaps to Diemschutz? “How could you have arrived at the yard at 1.00 if Constable Lamb was told about the body before !.00? Likewise any other discrepancies?

    Leave a comment:


  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

    At what point does hearing a pony and cart coming down the street signal "flee"? JtR is not to know that Deimshutz was going to enter the yard. As far as JtR knew, the pony was just going to continue down the street.

    - Jeff
    Hi Jeff,

    Its a fair point, as Fiver said, but couldn’t it have been the case that it might not just have been the sound of a horse and cart but a horse and cart slowing down? As it was the early hours of the morning I’m assuming that traffic would have been light to almost non-existent so a horse and cart might have gotten his attention rather more than it would have done during the day? He knew that he was standing near wide open double gates and he might even have been aware that there were stables in that yard. So might he not have just ‘pricked up his ears’ when he heard the cart approaching and paused until he could have been sure that it passed by. At some point though he realised that it was slowing down and so he had to hide. I’ve always thought that behind the gates would have been the likeliest.

    But because of the mention of the side door being open I think that it’s also worth considering that this might have ‘interrupted’ the killer. Whether it was someone crossing the yard to the loo or someone opening the door to let in a bit of air?

    It also might have been the case that the killer wasn’t the ripper of course.

    Leave a comment:


  • GBinOz
    replied
    Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post

    Where at Mitre Square?
    Hi Scott,

    From memory I think the suggestion was that he could have ducked around the corner of the Mitre Square entrance to enable a quick escape if Harvey noticed the body. When Harvey left he resumed his carving.

    Cheers, George

    Leave a comment:


  • Scott Nelson
    replied
    Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
    But it is a viable suggestion that he may have taken refuge there in case the cart turned into the yard, and to return if it didn't. It is thought that JtR may have done that with PC Harvey at Mitre Square.
    Where at Mitre Square?

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

    Hi Jeff,

    As I understand it the water closets were in the little alcove directly opposite the side door of the club. In my previous post I was thinking that it would would difficult for the culprit to attain access to that alcove after the horse had detected him, but I accept your suggestion that the horse may have shied at the smell of blood. But it is a viable suggestion that he may have taken refuge there in case the cart turned into the yard, and to return if it didn't. It is thought that JtR may have done that with PC Harvey at Mitre Square.

    Cheers, George
    Oh, ok. They were described as on the "other side of the yard", and I thought that meant at the opposite end to where the gate is (so the long way away). I suppose if they're close enough he could hide in one. Again, I'm not saying it's impossible, rather, that given there are so many other things that could have caused Stride's killer to leave the scene prior to Deimshutz's arrival, which don't require us to guess at pretty specific details, I find it hard to believe he was still there. Sure, I could be wrong in my belief, but I guess it boils down to the fact that although I think it's possible he was there, I don't think it at all probable. And, in my opinion, it's improbable enough that without something tangible to suggest otherwise, I don't believe he was. That being said, I'm still more than happy to discuss ideas that take as a starting point her killer was hiding when Deimshutz arrived. Working through the flow on consequences of that starting point may end up resulting in fitting other aspects of the case better than the he leaves earlier, and that might change my view because, sometimes the improbable does happen.

    - Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • GBinOz
    replied
    Another comment on time from a different angle.

    Detective-Inspector Reid said: I received a telegram at 1.25 on Sunday morning last at Commercial- street Police-office. I at once proceeded to No. 40, Berner-street, where I saw several police officers, Drs. Phillips and Blackwell

    Commercial St PS is a 19 minute walk from Dutfields, so the earliest Reid could have arrived is 1:44, and Phillips was already there.

    Constable Henry Lamb I turned my light on, when I found that the object was a woman, with her throat cut and apparently dead. I sent the other constable for the nearest doctor, and a young man who was standing by I despatched to the police station to inform the inspector what had occurred.

    Lehman St PS is 6 minutes walk from Dutfields.

    Mr. George Baxter Phillips: I live at No. 2, Spital-square, and am surgeon of the H Division of police. I was called on Sunday morning last at twenty past one to Leman-street Police-station, and was sent on to Berner-street, to a yard at the side of what proved to be a club-house.

    No. 2 Spital-square is 15 minutes walk to Lehman St PS. So from the time Lamb is first standing over the body add 6 minutes for the "young man" to reach Lehman St PS, add 30 minutes for someone to walk to Phillip's house and for Phillips to proceed to Lehman St PS, add another 6 minutes to Dutfields. This has Phillips arriving at Dutfields at about 1:41, which agrees with Reid seeing him there at 1:44, and has Lamb standing over the body at about 1AM, which fits his times. It also fits Smith's time of 1AM at the corner of Commercial and Berner. Blackwell's pocket watch was out of sync and Diemshitz was either mistaken or lying, I don't know which.

    Cheers, George

    Leave a comment:


  • GBinOz
    replied
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
    Hi Fiver,

    And I suppose he could sneak to the waterclosets, but that's a long way to travel. At what point does hearing a pony and cart coming down the street signal "flee"? JtR is not to know that Deimshutz was going to enter the yard. As far as JtR knew, the pony was just going to continue down the street. He doesn't appear to have fled when someone was next door in the Chapman case, so would he really flee all the way across the yard at the sound of traffic in the street?

    - Jeff
    Hi Jeff,

    As I understand it the water closets were in the little alcove directly opposite the side door of the club. In my previous post I was thinking that it would would difficult for the culprit to attain access to that alcove after the horse had detected him, but I accept your suggestion that the horse may have shied at the smell of blood. But it is a viable suggestion that he may have taken refuge there in case the cart turned into the yard, and to return if it didn't. It is thought that JtR may have done that with PC Harvey at Mitre Square.

    Cheers, George

    Leave a comment:


  • GBinOz
    replied
    Originally posted by Fiver View Post

    "Shortly before one o'clock" is the time PC Lamb gave for when he was contacted. It is not the time he reached Dutfield's Yard and it is an estimate.

    "Dr. Blackwell was the first doctor to arrive; he came ten or twelve minutes after myself, but I had no watch with me." - Constable Harry Lamb

    "I consulted my watch on my arrival, and it was 1.16 a.m." - Dr Frederick Blackwell

    That puts PC Lambs' estimated arrival at about 1:04 to 1:06am.
    The accuracy of an estimate of time elapsed is inversly proportional to the length of time elapsed from the starting point.

    Lamb's testimony at the inquest:
    [Coroner] Do you think that a person might have got away before you arrived? - I think he is more likely to have escaped before than after.
    Detective-Inspector Reid: How long before had you passed this place?
    Witness: I am not on the Berner-street beat, but I passed the end of the street in Commercial-road six or seven minutes before.


    Lamb had passed the tobacconist's clock only six to seven minutes before arriving at the yard, but he is already acknowledging that he didn't have a watch so was estimating. "Shortly before one o'clock" is the time PC Lamb gave for when he was contacted. This is an even shorter time from when he passed the tobacconist clock. I remain unconvinced that Lamb's estimate could be around five minutes out on a time of six to seven minutes or less. The standard rebuttal for this is that as a police officer, who Monty says were very concerned with time, he would have averted his eyes as he passed the tobacconist's clock.

    Mr. Edward Johnson: I live at 100, Commercial-road, and am assistant to Drs. Kaye and Blackwell. On Sunday morning last, at a few minutes past one o'clock, I received a call from Constable 436 H. After informing Dr. Blackwell, who was in bed, of the case, I accompanied the officer to Berner-street
    I had no watch with me, but Dr. Blackwell looked at his when he arrived, and the time was 1.16 a.m. I preceded him by three or four minutes.


    The "few minutes past one o'clock" fits with Lamb's time. Johnson was up at the time. Why did it, according to Blackwell's pocket watch, take Johnson about ten minutes to get to the yard when Blackwell arose, dressed and got to the yard in three or four minutes. Answer is that Blackwell's pocket watch was more than five minutes out of sync with his house clock, which appears to have been more closely in sync with the tobacconist clock, and the tobacconist clock itself.

    Members can choose which of the estimated and compiled or unsynchronised pocket watch times they adopt because they most suit their case, and which of said times can be dismissed because they don't suit their argument, but for my part I an happy to accept the times provided by Lamb and Smith.

    Cheers, George

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Hi MrBarnett,

    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
    Diemschutz wasn’t driving a car, Jeff. He was controlling a pony, probably with verbal instructions such as ‘whoa’ or the Yiddish equivalent.
    I think it's very clear in my post I'm talking about a pony and cart. Not sure how you got car from that, but since cars were not available in 1888, I certainly agree with you.

    I rather suspect his control of the pony was more connected to his use of the reigns and there would be relatively little reliance on the hollywood "whoa's". While I've only ridden horses a few times, the control was always physical, through the reigns and pressure from the knees on the horse's sides and so forth, and didn't involve voice commands. But, even if Deimshutz did use voice commands, it doesn't change the fact that he's not going to slow down until almost on top of the entrance, which doesn't leave a lot of time to flee.

    As I say, we're guessing here, so feel free to guess differently than I do. I'm not presenting any of this as if it's fact, only describing the ideas and assumptions that lead me to believe it's unlikely Stride's killer was still there when Deimshutz arrived. If you've made different assumptions it would be entirely plausible for you to believe the opposite. That's because, in the end, we do not have the necessary facts to work with, and so rather than be able to present facts and draw conclusions, we can only state our assumptions and beliefs.

    - Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • MrBarnett
    replied
    Diemschutz wasn’t driving a car, Jeff. He was controlling a pony, probably with verbal instructions such as ‘whoa’ or the Yiddish equivalent.



    Leave a comment:

Working...
X