Who has the goods?

[MrBarnett]

A close-up.

[caz]

I think what Michael is getting at is that Louis D walked back from Westow Hill market, south of the river, with his 'goods' - the cheap jewellery he didn't manage to flog that day - in a saddle bag, arriving back silently on foot around 12.40, to find a murdered woman cluttering up the yard. Four witnesses then arrived together on the dot of 12.45, where Louis hushed them into silence while he worked out what to do next. This explains why Mrs D didn't hear his return but only saw him, when he finally entered the kitchen asking for a match. He ignored her cutting response: "Your face, my arse", and hurried back to the yard.

Deciding on a cunning plan to tell the police he only arrived just after the clock struck 1am, to cover up for his lack of immediate action at 12.45, he used two coconut halves to simulate pony hooves at just the right time, knowing that Fanny Mortimer would hear them, assume he was just returning and confirm his bogus arrival time.

I think it all works, and would at least explain if nobody else mentioned seeing a pony and cart - or Gary's whip for that matter - at 12.45, when Michael is certain there were four perfectly reliable witnesses, all crowded round Louis D and Liz Stride.

I call him Lucky Louis, because he totally forgot to tell the four witnesses to sing from his own hymn sheet and say this was at 1am and definitely not at 12.45. He only got away with it because the IQ of the average copper in 1888 barely reached double figures, which meant that the music hall song, first performed that same year, should really have been called: "If you want to know the time, don't ask a policeman".

Love,

Caz
X

[Michael W Richards]

Its interesting to watch the banter and the insults fly when someone suggests something outside their own belief system, and its equally interesting that a belief would be preferable to the actual historical truth. The uncovering of truth is what I like to discuss....and in truth not one witness that stated a discovery time of around 12:40 or 12:45 was ever discredited or confronted about their story and the variances to what Louis claims. Other than Spooner being told his timing was wrong. Issac K gave his statement to the press around 1 hour after this happened and he said he was called to the yard about 10 minutes after returning to the club at half past. Issac also said that he was shortly thereafter sent out alone to look for help by Louis himself or "some other member". Both of those statements are in direct conflict with Louis's owm statements. And yet you choose to accept 1 uncorroborated account over 4 people validating each others stories without prior conspiring. Eagle says he came into the passageway at around 12:40. He "couldnt be sure" whether Liz was lying there. And he saw no-one. Even though 4 people and Lave say they were there at that same time.

If youd rather have faith vs fact Ive no issues. You can believe whatever you choose. Hell, someone here even believes almost everyone that was killed near London during those few years, regardless of methodologies, was killed by the same one man. I dont lose sleep when people demonstrate a resistance to evaluating their belief systems for their potential viability, i just would like for once to determine clear fact from beliefs.

There is no evidence as to what happened to the cart, horse and "goods". Nor when anything happened to them. The evidence presented by Louis is directly contradicted in timing by no less than 5 witnesses, including Fanny Mortimer.. who did not see any cart and horse arrive at 1am. While she stood at her door. Which we can validate with her claimed sighting of Leon Goldstein. The is no secondary source for what Eagle claims he saw and did.....despite the fact that Lave is apparently there too...and there is absolutely no secondary source to what Israel Schwartz claims he saw and did, and in fact many directly contradictory statements based on its timing.

There are statements that have support by independent secondary verifications, and there are those that have none. Israel, Lave, Eagle and Mrs D fall into the second group. However 3 members and 2 independent sources validate each others independent accounts by virtue of the matched events and approximate timings.

So the people stories who have no stake in what happens to the club if the police suspected the killer was from among the men still in attendance all seem to agree on basic details and timings, and the people who would lose jobs and money if that happened have no-one to verify any part of their stories. And in fact they contain things like being in the same place at the same time as others and not seeing each other.

Its really simple if you just follow the evidence. Louis didnt arrive at "precisely" 1 at all, he arrived earlier, he didnt later leave for help with Issac K because Issac K says he was sent out by Louis or another member around 12:40, Lamb hears of this before 1am, and Morris Eagle avoided being caught lying later by suggesting he "couldnt be sure" Liz wasnt lying there when he came in through the gates around 12:40.

You see just because you "believe" differently, the records of the specific statements differ with your findings. Historically, logically and reasonably. Liz was dying while the staff discussed the ramifications of this discovery. The discovery was closer to 12:30 than it was to 1am.

[mpriestnall]

Maybe someone nicked the cart in the ensuing confusion. East Enders never ones to miss "business opportunities"...

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think what Michael is getting at is that Louis D walked back from Westow Hill market, south of the river, with his 'goods' - the cheap jewellery he didn't manage to flog that day - in a saddle bag, arriving back silently on foot around 12.40, to find a murdered woman cluttering up the yard. Four witnesses then arrived together on the dot of 12.45, where Louis hushed them into silence while he worked out what to do next. This explains why Mrs D didn't hear his return but only saw him, when he finally entered the kitchen asking for a match. He ignored her cutting response: "Your face, my arse", and hurried back to the yard.

Deciding on a cunning plan to tell the police he only arrived just after the clock struck 1am, to cover up for his lack of immediate action at 12.45, he used two coconut halves to simulate pony hooves at just the right time, knowing that Fanny Mortimer would hear them, assume he was just returning and confirm his bogus arrival time.

I think it all works, and would at least explain if nobody else mentioned seeing a pony and cart - or Gary's whip for that matter - at 12.45, when Michael is certain there were four perfectly reliable witnesses, all crowded round Louis D and Liz Stride.

I call him Lucky Louis, because he totally forgot to tell the four witnesses to sing from his own hymn sheet and say this was at 1am and definitely not at 12.45. He only got away with it because the IQ of the average copper in 1888 barely reached double figures, which meant that the music hall song, first performed that same year, should really have been called: "If you want to know the time, don't ask a policeman".

Love,

Caz
X

The Coconut Halves Solution is a good one Caz. More plausible than my previous suggestion that Fanny Mortimer simply heard someone with a horse & cart ringtone.

Glad to see you're giving this theory all of the thought it deserves.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Its interesting to watch the banter and the insults fly when someone suggests something outside their own belief system, and its equally interesting that a belief would be preferable to the actual historical truth. The uncovering of truth is what I like to discuss....and in truth not one witness that stated a discovery time of around 12:40 or 12:45 was ever discredited or confronted about their story and the variances to what Louis claims. Other than Spooner being told his timing was wrong. Issac K gave his statement to the press around 1 hour after this happened and he said he was called to the yard about 10 minutes after returning to the club at half past. Issac also said that he was shortly thereafter sent out alone to look for help by Louis himself or "some other member". Both of those statements are in direct conflict with Louis's owm statements. And yet you choose to accept 1 uncorroborated account over 4 people validating each others stories without prior conspiring. Eagle says he came into the passageway at around 12:40. He "couldnt be sure" whether Liz was lying there. And he saw no-one. Even though 4 people and Lave say they were there at that same time.

If youd rather have faith vs fact Ive no issues. You can believe whatever you choose. Hell, someone here even believes almost everyone that was killed near London during those few years, regardless of methodologies, was killed by the same one man. I dont lose sleep when people demonstrate a resistance to evaluating their belief systems for their potential viability, i just would like for once to determine clear fact from beliefs.

There is no evidence as to what happened to the cart, horse and "goods". Nor when anything happened to them. The evidence presented by Louis is directly contradicted in timing by no less than 5 witnesses, including Fanny Mortimer.. who did not see any cart and horse arrive at 1am. While she stood at her door. Which we can validate with her claimed sighting of Leon Goldstein. The is no secondary source for what Eagle claims he saw and did.....despite the fact that Lave is apparently there too...and there is absolutely no secondary source to what Israel Schwartz claims he saw and did, and in fact many directly contradictory statements based on its timing.

There are statements that have support by independent secondary verifications, and there are those that have none. Israel, Lave, Eagle and Mrs D fall into the second group. However 3 members and 2 independent sources validate each others independent accounts by virtue of the matched events and approximate timings.

So the people stories who have no stake in what happens to the club if the police suspected the killer was from among the men still in attendance all seem to agree on basic details and timings, and the people who would lose jobs and money if that happened have no-one to verify any part of their stories. And in fact they contain things like being in the same place at the same time as others and not seeing each other.

Its really simple if you just follow the evidence. Louis didnt arrive at "precisely" 1 at all, he arrived earlier, he didnt later leave for help with Issac K because Issac K says he was sent out by Louis or another member around 12:40, Lamb hears of this before 1am, and Morris Eagle avoided being caught lying later by suggesting he "couldnt be sure" Liz wasnt lying there when he came in through the gates around 12:40.

You see just because you "believe" differently, the records of the specific statements differ with your findings. Historically, logically and reasonably. Liz was dying while the staff discussed the ramifications of this discovery. The discovery was closer to 12:30 than it was to 1am.

The big difference is the most people prefer to take an honest, unbiased approach. What you keep doing is spouting the same old inaccurate, manipulated garbage in a desperate attempt to defend a theory that you've been hawking around for 20 years without finding anyone to give it a second thought. You constantly refuse to answer questions even though it's your theory. Shall I try again? Ok, for the 769th time....

Why do you keep talking about Gillen when this person doesn't exist and why, when talking about Gilleman and Eagle, you try and claim them as confirming an earlier discovery time when they confirm Diemschutz? I'd love an answer but I haven't received one the previous 768 times.

You tend to use the 'stick your fingers in your ears' method of coping with people that disagree with you but you just keep parroting the same biased stuff. You're 4 witnesses couldn't possibly be less convincing and yet you try and portray them as solid. And the only reason that you do this is because they are all that you have. 4 very obviously mistaken witnesses. Provably mistaken witnesses. And around these 4 you have woven a theory about as solid as a spiders web and you've gone to all of this effort not in the spirit of getting to the truth Michael but because you believe that Isenschmidt killed Nichols and Chapman but he couldn't have killed Stride and Eddowes and so you needed 'a theory.' So you created one and you feel the need to defend it at all costs.

It's beyond defence. It's a fantasy. It just did not happen. If you're going to create a conspiracy don't base it on silly timing errors by people who didn't own watches.

[caz]

The Coconut Halves Solution is a good one Caz. More plausible than my previous suggestion that Fanny Mortimer simply heard someone with a horse & cart ringtone.

Glad to see you're giving this theory all of the thought it deserves.

Thanks Herlock.

I was just trying to make sense of the nonsensical.

I haven't read Michael's latest yet, but I hope he showed some gratitude for my efforts to go along with his 12.45 discovery time, sans pony and cart, instead of dissing it as a load of old pony.

Good weekend all. I think it must be cocktail hour.

Love,

Caz
X

[Doctored Whatsit]

There is no evidence as to what happened to the cart, horse and "goods". Nor when anything happened to them. The evidence presented by Louis is directly contradicted in timing by no less than 5 witnesses, including Fanny Mortimer.. who did not see any cart and horse arrive at 1am. While she stood at her door. Which we can validate with her claimed sighting of Leon Goldstein. The is no secondary source for what Eagle claims he saw and did.....despite the fact that Lave is apparently there too...and there is absolutely no secondary source to what Israel Schwartz claims he saw and did, and in fact many directly contradictory statements based on its timing.

There is no evidence as to what happened to the pony and cart because this is irrelevant in a murder enquiry, and I guess the police decided the pony was innocent. If there was anything odd or suspicious about the pony, cart and goods, the police would have noticed and asked questions. They appear to have not done so.

It is pointless claiming that Louis D's evidence is contradicted by Fanny Mortimer, because in her evidence she totally contradicts herself! Possibly she heard a policeman pass, went to the door, was there for ten minutes before shooting the bolts and preparing to retire to bed, and heard the pony and cart a few minutes later, and then the commotion shortly afterwards. Or maybe, she was standing in the doorway for practically the whole of the time between 12. 30 and 1 am and noticed nothing unusual, and heard the commotion shortly after she went inside. During her spells at the door she only noticed Goldstein passing. We cannot accept both of her stories as accurate, and we can be sure that the police took a careful statement from her sorting out the obvious errors. Unfortunately we cannot know the contents of that statement, but it probably combines much of the gist of her two original statements to the press, but in a manner that makes sense.

Something like - She heard PC Smith pass by at about 12. 30 am and went to the door shortly afterwards for maybe 5 - 10 minutes, then popped in and out over the following 20 - 25 minutes, seeing Goldstein pass at just before 1 am, but nothing else of any significance, then she finally locked up, heard the pony and cart pass by, followed by the commotion from the club. That would work reasonably well with the main timing evidence.

Stride entered the Yard, alone or accompanied, voluntarily or by force while Fanny M was indoors, and if Schwartz was telling the truth, he was probably passing by at roughly the same time that Stride was about to enter the Yard. The police had a detailed statement from Mortimer, and one from Schwartz, and they clearly believed Schwartz - Swanson says so. It is reasonable to conclude that Fanny M's police statement didn't contradict the other main evidence as far as the police were concerned.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Another unanswered question (to add to the others) is why didn't the vigilant Mrs Mortimer see Stride? She didn't just materialise in the yard she walked into it. So why didn't Fanny see her? Or wasn't Fanny on her doorstep for anything like as long as she said. I reckon she went onto her doorstep at around 12.33 and stayed there for 7 minutes or so. Back inside at 12.40. Didn't see Stride, didn't see Schwartz.

[Aethelwulf]

to cover up for his lack of immediate action at 12.45, he used two coconut halves to simulate pony hooves at just the right time

A rare insight into the mind of a hardened Victorian criminal.

You've got me questioning whether Bury even owned a horse and cart - was he just clopping down the road from Bow with a couple of coconut halves strapped to his feet? As for his potential hiding place in a stable - coconuts on and clip clop in we go. Sorted!

[JeffHamm]

Hi all,

I've zoomed in on the yard, and measured the length from the street to the corner of the club building (roughly where the end of the cart is in my diagram). That was about 57.5 feet long. I looked up the average length of a horse (2.4 metres apparently), and as the main difference between a horse and pony is the height, I've used that to scale the pony. I couldn't find anything on the average length of a pony directly, so if anything, I'm erring on the side of caution and my pony is too long. I'm not sure of the width of a pony and/or cart, so I just tried to eyeball it. The cart's probably a bit narrow actually but as I don't know what sort of cart Diemshutz had, I just did a quick search for Victorian Pony and Cart, and found the stock photo below, and used that as a rough guide for the length of the cart. It doesn't look like it would be much "wider" than the pony, but it's a guess of course.

Diemshutz testifies he moved the pony and cart up by the club door, and while it's not stated specifically, I would think it would have been moved a bit further into the yard to get it out of the way, either by Deimshutz or someone else. I've positioned it as if it has been moved, partly because the door to the club isn't indicated on the map, but it's up around that end.

I see no reason why it would get a mention unless it somehow became tied to the case (for example, if the police found blood in the cart, which would suggest Deimshutz transported the body and dumped it at the club; or if there were signs of the cart wheels having gone through the blood and spreading it out, etc).

As for his goods and stabling, once Diemshutz had been examined by the police and was able to go about his business, I'm sure he took care of them at that point. We do not have the details of when each of the club members left to go home, either, but that doesn't mean there's a mystery about it, it just means that information not directly related to the case hasn't been documented.

- Jeff

[DJA]

[DJA]

Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Elizabeth Stride's Inquest

Prolly worth reading,has the distance of the kitchen door as 18 feet from the gateway.

[DJA]

[GBinOz]

Another unanswered question (to add to the others) is why didn't the vigilant Mrs Mortimer see Stride? She didn't just materialise in the yard she walked into it. So why didn't Fanny see her? Or wasn't Fanny on her doorstep for anything like as long as she said. I reckon she went onto her doorstep at around 12.33 and stayed there for 7 minutes or so. Back inside at 12.40. Didn't see Stride, didn't see Schwartz.

I seem to recall that timings were discussed in a previous thread without resolution. I put a question to Monty on how accurate the police Bobbie needed to be on time and his reply was "very". If it is accepted that the police had a better idea of the actual time than residents or club members that rely on extimates then things tend to fall into place. Smith said he walked past Stride and Parcelman headed north at between 12:30 and 12:35, so let's adopt Michael's time of 12:33. Mortimer stated she heard Smith's footsteps at just before 12:45, so there is a clock sync error of about 10 minutes. If we apply this correction and Mortimer stayed at her door for ten minutes, as stated, that has her leaving her door just before 12:45 and consequentially just missing Schwartz, and if Stride went into the yard immediately after Smith passed, accompanied or not, then Mortimer would have missed them as well. She hears Louis and his cart passing 4 minutes after that, at corrected clock time of about 12:47.

Lamb says he was alerted at shortly before 1am. He had passed the tobacconist clock very shortly before this time and had every reason to look at that clock as he was headed towards Ayliffe who was to be released from fixed point duty at 1am. This time conflicts with Diemshitz's statement at the inquest that he passed this clock at precisely 1am.

At the inquest Diemshitz was asked by the [Coroner] Any person going up the centre of the yard might have passed without noticing it? - I, perhaps, should not have noticed it if my pony had not shied. I had passed it when I got down from my barrow. From this we know That it was dark enough for anyone to have missed the body and that the whip prodding episode took place when the cart was passed the body. The Coroner also asked specifically What did you do with the pony? - I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door. I find myself wondering why the disposition of the pony and cart has any relevance to the case.

When previously discussed I found the time of "a few minutes" from pony shy to Lamb's alert to be too short. Diemshitz makes it clear that after the pony shied there was no urgency on his part at all until he returns with the candle as he originally supposed that the female form may have been his wife.

I looked to see what the object was, and observed that there was something unusual, but could not tell what. It was a dark object. I put my whip handle to it, and tried to lift it up, but as I did not succeed I jumped down from my barrow and struck a match. It was rather windy, and I could only get sufficient light to see that there was some figure there. I could tell from the dress that it was the figure of a woman. I went into the club and asked where my wife was. I found her in the front room on the ground floor.
[Coroner] What did you do with the pony? - I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door. There were several members in the front room of the club, and I told them all that there was a woman lying in the yard, though I could not say whether she was drunk or dead. I then got a candle and went into the yard, where I could see blood before I reached the body.

If we add the time expended on the above to the time taken to locate Lamb it is obvious that the time of discovery of the body was well before 1am, with Diemshitz's polished up "exactly 1am" the only dissenting clock time.

Given the choice between times given by 4 witnesses and 2 police constables against that of a sleepy man on a cart at the end of a long day, I choose the former. I accept, with respect, others right to support Diemshitz's time.

Cheers, George