Who has the goods?

[DJA]

So...You the rear part of the horse with the lifted leg?

Nope. That's referred to as the Canadian quarter,AKA the horse's hoof.

Crikey,I give you two likes and that's what I get in return

[Doctored Whatsit]

Do you recall what other people stated they also saw the pony and cart after Louis says he left it there? Like the dozens still in the club after 12:30? Or the people who arrived after that? The whole point here is to establish that none of the people who said they were by the body around 12:45 mention the cart or horse, and none of the popel arriving after that do either. So...what time did the cart and horse get taken away? You think thats clear?

So we are to assume that during the discussions about a murder on the premises, the club members should really be talking about the whereabouts of a pony and cart? If Louis D was lying, I think one of the many police officers present might have noticed. The pony and cart was moved out of the way, and ceased to be of any relevance to the murder enquiries.

[Michael W Richards]

Nope. That's referred to as the Canadian quarter,AKA the horse's hoof.

Crikey,I give you two likes and that's what I get in return

Sorry, I dont pay attention to likes. I do pay attention to disses.

[Michael W Richards]

So we are to assume that during the discussions about a murder on the premises, the club members should really be talking about the whereabouts of a pony and cart? If Louis D was lying, I think one of the many police officers present might have noticed. The pony and cart was moved out of the way, and ceased to be of any relevance to the murder enquiries.

MISSING THE POINT HERE......but at least you have company. What time was the horse and cart moved? You have that answer? If its not around when the 4 witnesses say they were by the body at around 12:45 with Louis, at least none mention it... and its not around when Lamb gets there, cause he and the rest who arrive do not mention it...then WHEN was it moved? If it was moved to the yard, and stabled there...why are the stables empty and unused when searched. If it was in the yard....why didnt the officers mention it...even in passing. We are talking about a pony and cart and barrow with goods loaded onto it...you folks seem to trivialize what an obstacle it might persent when loads of people are around.

Is it locked inside the gates when the police close them? Or in the yard?

OR....has it been taken away before the men gathered around the dying woman at 12:45 are standing there with Louis? When it was taken will reveal when Louis really arrived. Cause it wasnt 1am.

[Herlock Sholmes]

MISSING THE POINT HERE......but at least you have company. What time was the horse and cart moved? You have that answer? If its not around when the 4 witnesses say they were by the body at around 12:45 with Louis, at least none mention it... and its not around when Lamb gets there, cause he and the rest who arrive do not mention it...then WHEN was it moved? If it was moved to the yard, and stabled there...why are the stables empty and unused when searched. If it was in the yard....why didnt the officers mention it...even in passing. We are talking about a pony and cart and barrow with goods loaded onto it...you folks seem to trivialize what an obstacle it might persent when loads of people are around.

Is it locked inside the gates when the police close them? Or in the yard?

OR....has it been taken away before the men gathered around the dying woman at 12:45 are standing there with Louis? When it was taken will reveal when Louis really arrived. Cause it wasnt 1am.

I’ll ask it for the 768th time….

Explain how Gilleman, who called Eagle to the body at 1.00, can be used to come up with an earlier discovery time?

[Herlock Sholmes]

MISSING THE POINT HERE......but at least you have company. What time was the horse and cart moved? You have that answer? If its not around when the 4 witnesses say they were by the body at around 12:45 with Louis, at least none mention it... and its not around when Lamb gets there, cause he and the rest who arrive do not mention it...then WHEN was it moved? If it was moved to the yard, and stabled there...why are the stables empty and unused when searched. If it was in the yard....why didnt the officers mention it...even in passing. We are talking about a pony and cart and barrow with goods loaded onto it...you folks seem to trivialize what an obstacle it might persent when loads of people are around.

Is it locked inside the gates when the police close them? Or in the yard?

OR....has it been taken away before the men gathered around the dying woman at 12:45 are standing there with Louis? When it was taken will reveal when Louis really arrived. Cause it wasnt 1am.

So Diemschutz lied about arriving on a horse and cart and just hoped that the police wouldn’t notice that there was no horse and cart in the yard?

Please tell me that’s not what you’re suggesting? It wouldn’t surprise me tbh but I still hope that it’s not what you’re suggesting.

[Fiver]

Is it locked inside the gates when the police close them? Or in the yard?

OR....has it been taken away before the men gathered around the dying woman at 12:45 are standing there with Louis? When it was taken will reveal when Louis really arrived. Cause it wasnt 1am.

Your version of the conspiracy requires the active assistance of plenty of people who were neither Jewish nor Socialists.

If there was no pony and cart in the yard, then Fanny Mortimer, Constable Lamb, Edward Spooner, Dr Blackwell, Edward Johnson, Dr Phillips, PC Smith, PC Collins, and Detective Reid would have known that Lewis Diemshutz was lying, but done nothing about it.

[Fiver]

So Diemschutz lied about arriving on a horse and cart and just hoped that the police wouldn’t notice that there was no horse and cart in the yard?

Please tell me that’s not what you’re suggesting? It wouldn’t surprise me tbh but I still hope that it’s not what you’re suggesting.

That's exactly what he's suggesting and it's complete nonsense. It doesn't just require that every person present at the club that night be part of the conspiracy. It requires all of the police who arrived to be part of the conspiracy. And all of the doctors. And all of the random members of the public who wandered in. And any occupants of the tenements who looked out their windows into the yard to see what all the fuss was.

[Herlock Sholmes]

That's exactly what he's suggesting and it's complete nonsense. It doesn't just require that every person present at the club that night be part of the conspiracy. It requires all of the police who arrived to be part of the conspiracy. And all of the doctors. And all of the random members of the public who wandered in. And any occupants of the tenements who looked out their windows into the yard to see what all the fuss was.

Will this madness ever end Fiver? No because it would require admitting that a 20 year obsession has been shown to be completely baseless.

[MrBarnett]

Will this madness ever end Fiver? No because it would require admitting that a 20 year obsession has been shown to be completely baseless.

I still haven’t found out what happened to the whip. Its possible dimensions have been discussed on here. I wonder where Michael stands on that? Was it a small, easily concealable whip or an unfeasibly large one?

[Aethelwulf]

Who has the goods?

Who cares!

[MrBarnett]

Who has the goods?

Who cares!

I do, because I think the same person may have the whip.

[Doctored Whatsit]

MISSING THE POINT HERE......but at least you have company. What time was the horse and cart moved? You have that answer? If its not around when the 4 witnesses say they were by the body at around 12:45 with Louis, at least none mention it... and its not around when Lamb gets there, cause he and the rest who arrive do not mention it...then WHEN was it moved? If it was moved to the yard, and stabled there...why are the stables empty and unused when searched. If it was in the yard....why didnt the officers mention it...even in passing. We are talking about a pony and cart and barrow with goods loaded onto it...you folks seem to trivialize what an obstacle it might persent when loads of people are around.

Is it locked inside the gates when the police close them? Or in the yard?

OR....has it been taken away before the men gathered around the dying woman at 12:45 are standing there with Louis? When it was taken will reveal when Louis really arrived. Cause it wasnt 1am.

What on earth is the problem here? Louis D's evidence is that he moved the pony and cart to just outside the club door, before he and others went outside with a candle. So that is almost immediately after he arrived. He never said the pony was in the stable, and in fact specified that it was normally kept in George Yard. I'll say it again, his evidence is crystal clear, and if it was even slightly incorrect, one of the police officers would have said so.

It has no bearing on the murder investigation, so why should the police mention it, unless, of course, the pony and cart weren't there despite Louis D's statement, then they would have said something!!!!

[etenguy]

East London Observer, Oct 6th, 1888
"Lewis Dienischitz [Diemschutz], who is the steward of the club, found the body, and this is his version of the discovery: "On Saturday," he says, "I left home about half-past eleven in the morning and returned home exactly at one a.m. Sunday morning. I noticed the time at a tobacco shop in the Commercial-road. I was driving a pony harnessed to a costermonger's barrow. I do not keep the pony in the yard of the club, but in George-yard, Cable-street. I drove the barrow home in order to leave my goods there."

Is this George yard near George yard buildings where Martha Tabram was murdered?

[Joshua Rogan]

Is this George yard near George yard buildings where Martha Tabram was murdered?

No, this George Yard was in Cable Street.