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  • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

    Lamb had passed the tobacconist's clock only six to seven minutes before arriving at the yard, but he is already acknowledging that he didn't have a watch so was estimating. "Shortly before one o'clock" is the time PC Lamb gave for when he was contacted. This is an even shorter time from when he passed the tobacconist clock. I remain unconvinced that Lamb's estimate could be around five minutes out on a time of six to seven minutes or less. The standard rebuttal for this is that as a police officer, who Monty says were very concerned with time, he would have averted his eyes as he passed the tobacconist's clock.
    Surely George no one is suggesting that Lamb deliberately averted his eyes? All that I would perhaps suggest is that Constable were human and it’s also the case that they didn’t simply walk around. There would have been distractions during any round. I can say nothing for certain but can we be certain that Lamb couldn’t have been distracted by someone or something? I’m only suggesting a possibility.

    Just a point. Wouldn’t the police or those at the Inquest have raised this point? Perhaps to Diemschutz? “How could you have arrived at the yard at 1.00 if Constable Lamb was told about the body before !.00? Likewise any other discrepancies?
    Regards

    Sir Herlock Sholmes



    "Tis but a part we see, and not a whole."

    ”Baroni licitum est dicere troglodytam”

    Comment


    • My other point would be that Diemschutz specifically said that he took his time from the tobacconist’s clock whereas Lamb gives an estimated time therefore the suggestion that he used the same clock is only an assumption. I’m not suggesting that he couldn’t have of course but the fact remains. I don’t know how many clocks Lamb would have seen on his round but maybe for consistency he might have judged his time by the same couple of clocks on each round? Maybe he didn’t trust the tobacconist shops clock as accurate as it had been proven to have been inaccurate in the past? A couple of serious ‘maybe’s’ there of course.

      Neither of us (I believe) suspect Diemschutz of lying but errors can occur of course. Diemschutz did sound confident though.
      Regards

      Sir Herlock Sholmes



      "Tis but a part we see, and not a whole."

      ”Baroni licitum est dicere troglodytam”

      Comment


      • Hi Herlock,

        Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

        Hi Jeff,

        Its a fair point, as Fiver said, but couldn’t it have been the case that it might not just have been the sound of a horse and cart but a horse and cart slowing down? As it was the early hours of the morning I’m assuming that traffic would have been light to almost non-existent so a horse and cart might have gotten his attention rather more than it would have done during the day? He knew that he was standing near wide open double gates and he might even have been aware that there were stables in that yard. So might he not have just ‘pricked up his ears’ when he heard the cart approaching and paused until he could have been sure that it passed by. At some point though he realised that it was slowing down and so he had to hide. I’ve always thought that behind the gates would have been the likeliest.

        But because of the mention of the side door being open I think that it’s also worth considering that this might have ‘interrupted’ the killer. Whether it was someone crossing the yard to the loo or someone opening the door to let in a bit of air?

        It also might have been the case that the killer wasn’t the ripper of course.
        I don't think the pony and cart is going to do much slowing down until the pony is almost right at the ally entrance. They don't go all that fast after all. As for hiding behind the gate, I don't know, that would depend upon what kind of gate they were. If they're just a set of bars, they wouldn't be all that concealing, but if they're solid wood, then yes I suppose that would work. But wouldn't they be fastened to the wall to prevent them swinging shut? That's a lot of fumbling in the dark, and the gate would make a tell-tale movement when he moved it away from the wall to get behind. A lot of what I'm suggesting here is speculation on how the gates are set up, obviously, and I don't know any details about them - perhaps there is information on the nature of the gate construction that I'm unaware of and my concerns are unnecessary.

        I could see him moving away, to avoid being seen by a passing cart, and if so, perhaps he was in a position that he could find a place to hide when it became obvious the pony was pulling into the yard. Deimshutz, behind on the cart, and in the dark, would have his view somewhat obstructed after all.

        Still, it seems far less complicated if something like the opening of the club door, maybe just to let air into the kitchen, was the event that made him leave, but something before Deimshutz's arrival seems plausible. Maybe as he was strangling her, the door opens, nobody comes out, so he cuts her throat and bolts type thing (kills her so she can't identify him as nobody has come out, and gets out of the area? - just thinking as I type this, so I'm sure that's not a great idea). Anyway, I think there's ample opportunity for something to have occurred that caused JtR to leave before Deimshutz shows up, and that is a much less complicated situation, it seems the more probable to me. Him being there when Deimshutz shows up involves a lot more reliance on luck for JtR, and depends upon a lot of information that (as far as I know) we do not have, so must speculate on. Doesn't mean it's not possible, but I don't see it as probable. (note, if Stride's not a victim of JtR, I think it far more likely he was long gone before Deimshutz arrives - my talking about JtR exclusively here was just because that's the case that requires something other than the killing of Stride to induce him leaving the scene. A non-JtR killer would just leave at that point, regardless).

        - Jeff

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
          My other point would be that Diemschutz specifically said that he took his time from the tobacconist’s clock whereas Lamb gives an estimated time therefore the suggestion that he used the same clock is only an assumption.

          Neither of us (I believe) suspect Diemschutz of lying but errors can occur of course. Diemschutz did sound confident though.
          Hi Herlock,

          Diemshitz was quoting a time for an alleged clock sighting. Lamb was quoting times after he had left the clock so they had to be estimates but, as Monty says, an important part of their job was time estimates. Lamb is quoting small estimate differences because he viewed the clock recently, and Smith is quoting a larger range (12:30 to 12:35) because it is a longer time since he has looked at the clock. It would be unrealistic to assume that a PC would have a 5 minute error in an estimate of time of six to seven minutes since he saw the clock. The time difference in the arrival of Johnson and Blackwell that I noted in my previous post shows that their house clock and Blackwell's pocket watch were not synchronised, but the house clock seems to have been in close agreement with the tobacconist clock.

          The police stations of that era synchronised their time via the telegraph and, as shown in my previous post, times deduced from the testimony of Reid and Phillips also fit with Lamb's time from the tobacconist clock. Schwartz passed the tobacconist clock and if a synchronisation correction is applied to Mortimer's times so that they fit with her hearing Smith pass at about 12:33, then we have an explanation of why she just missed seeing both Stride and Schwartz.

          You make the point that the constables were human. So was Diemshitz, and the Coroner may have formed that opinion. I don't know if Diemshitz was lying or just firming up, for the inquest, the time he usually arrive at the yard. I place no stock in guess-estimates based on long ago clock sightings or pub closings, and have removed them from my consideration. I look at Blackwell's apparently unsynchronisied pocket watch and Diemshitz's alleged clock sighting against the times from Lamb, Smith and the Police stations and choose the later. I'm not saying this to promote any conspiracy theory, I'm just saying the times fit.

          Cheers, George

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
            I’ve always thought that behind the gates would have been the likeliest.
            Hi Herlock,

            Me again. If we only focus on an interuption due to the horse and cart approaching and the killer being JtR, he has just cut Stride's throat and needs a place to hide until the cart does or doesn't pass, a split second decision. Does he go towards the threat or away from it? Would it be more incriminating to be discovered hiding behind the gate or using the conveniences in the toilet block? FWIW, I tend to lean towards the latter.

            Cheers, George

            Comment


            • Neil could hear Thain from a distance longer than IWEC to Commercial road, the pony is louder. Even before Diemschutz
              turn left from Commercial Road into Berner st, its from there JTR decides whether it's going to Berner street or not in
              the first place. There was sufficient light in Berner street. From his testimony Lamb could see from Commercial Rd.,
              if somebody was running on the other end towards Fairclough but not the man's features.

              By the time Diemschutz turn left into Berner St., it's too late. Although possible and more intriguing, it's hard to believe JTR was stuck
              in there when Diemschutz and pony went inside the gates. In my opinion it was Goldstein, more so if he looked inside the IWEC as there were
              still people singing, or somebody/something inside the IWEC that spooked him.
              By the time Diemschutz arrived in the corner of Commercial rd/Berner st. JTR was gone already by possibly a minute or 2.
              Or even he run as soon as he heard the pony even before Diemschutz reached the corner, maybe he made some kind of connection between the wagon and the only place in Berner St.with inhabitants still awake and singing.
              Last edited by Varqm; 09-19-2021, 12:58 AM.
              Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced,it started civil society).
              M. Pacana

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