Who has the goods?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Lamb had passed the tobacconist's clock only six to seven minutes before arriving at the yard, but he is already acknowledging that he didn't have a watch so was estimating. "Shortly before one o'clock" is the time PC Lamb gave for when he was contacted. This is an even shorter time from when he passed the tobacconist clock. I remain unconvinced that Lamb's estimate could be around five minutes out on a time of six to seven minutes or less. The standard rebuttal for this is that as a police officer, who Monty says were very concerned with time, he would have averted his eyes as he passed the tobacconist's clock.

Surely George no one is suggesting that Lamb deliberately averted his eyes? All that I would perhaps suggest is that Constable were human and it’s also the case that they didn’t simply walk around. There would have been distractions during any round. I can say nothing for certain but can we be certain that Lamb couldn’t have been distracted by someone or something? I’m only suggesting a possibility.

Just a point. Wouldn’t the police or those at the Inquest have raised this point? Perhaps to Diemschutz? “How could you have arrived at the yard at 1.00 if Constable Lamb was told about the body before !.00? Likewise any other discrepancies?

[Herlock Sholmes]

My other point would be that Diemschutz specifically said that he took his time from the tobacconist’s clock whereas Lamb gives an estimated time therefore the suggestion that he used the same clock is only an assumption. I’m not suggesting that he couldn’t have of course but the fact remains. I don’t know how many clocks Lamb would have seen on his round but maybe for consistency he might have judged his time by the same couple of clocks on each round? Maybe he didn’t trust the tobacconist shops clock as accurate as it had been proven to have been inaccurate in the past? A couple of serious ‘maybe’s’ there of course.

Neither of us (I believe) suspect Diemschutz of lying but errors can occur of course. Diemschutz did sound confident though.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Herlock,

Hi Jeff,

Its a fair point, as Fiver said, but couldn’t it have been the case that it might not just have been the sound of a horse and cart but a horse and cart slowing down? As it was the early hours of the morning I’m assuming that traffic would have been light to almost non-existent so a horse and cart might have gotten his attention rather more than it would have done during the day? He knew that he was standing near wide open double gates and he might even have been aware that there were stables in that yard. So might he not have just ‘pricked up his ears’ when he heard the cart approaching and paused until he could have been sure that it passed by. At some point though he realised that it was slowing down and so he had to hide. I’ve always thought that behind the gates would have been the likeliest.

But because of the mention of the side door being open I think that it’s also worth considering that this might have ‘interrupted’ the killer. Whether it was someone crossing the yard to the loo or someone opening the door to let in a bit of air?

It also might have been the case that the killer wasn’t the ripper of course.

I don't think the pony and cart is going to do much slowing down until the pony is almost right at the ally entrance. They don't go all that fast after all. As for hiding behind the gate, I don't know, that would depend upon what kind of gate they were. If they're just a set of bars, they wouldn't be all that concealing, but if they're solid wood, then yes I suppose that would work. But wouldn't they be fastened to the wall to prevent them swinging shut? That's a lot of fumbling in the dark, and the gate would make a tell-tale movement when he moved it away from the wall to get behind. A lot of what I'm suggesting here is speculation on how the gates are set up, obviously, and I don't know any details about them - perhaps there is information on the nature of the gate construction that I'm unaware of and my concerns are unnecessary.

I could see him moving away, to avoid being seen by a passing cart, and if so, perhaps he was in a position that he could find a place to hide when it became obvious the pony was pulling into the yard. Deimshutz, behind on the cart, and in the dark, would have his view somewhat obstructed after all.

Still, it seems far less complicated if something like the opening of the club door, maybe just to let air into the kitchen, was the event that made him leave, but something before Deimshutz's arrival seems plausible. Maybe as he was strangling her, the door opens, nobody comes out, so he cuts her throat and bolts type thing (kills her so she can't identify him as nobody has come out, and gets out of the area? - just thinking as I type this, so I'm sure that's not a great idea). Anyway, I think there's ample opportunity for something to have occurred that caused JtR to leave before Deimshutz shows up, and that is a much less complicated situation, it seems the more probable to me. Him being there when Deimshutz shows up involves a lot more reliance on luck for JtR, and depends upon a lot of information that (as far as I know) we do not have, so must speculate on. Doesn't mean it's not possible, but I don't see it as probable. (note, if Stride's not a victim of JtR, I think it far more likely he was long gone before Deimshutz arrives - my talking about JtR exclusively here was just because that's the case that requires something other than the killing of Stride to induce him leaving the scene. A non-JtR killer would just leave at that point, regardless).

- Jeff

[GBinOz]

My other point would be that Diemschutz specifically said that he took his time from the tobacconist’s clock whereas Lamb gives an estimated time therefore the suggestion that he used the same clock is only an assumption.

Neither of us (I believe) suspect Diemschutz of lying but errors can occur of course. Diemschutz did sound confident though.

Hi Herlock,

Diemshitz was quoting a time for an alleged clock sighting. Lamb was quoting times after he had left the clock so they had to be estimates but, as Monty says, an important part of their job was time estimates. Lamb is quoting small estimate differences because he viewed the clock recently, and Smith is quoting a larger range (12:30 to 12:35) because it is a longer time since he has looked at the clock. It would be unrealistic to assume that a PC would have a 5 minute error in an estimate of time of six to seven minutes since he saw the clock. The time difference in the arrival of Johnson and Blackwell that I noted in my previous post shows that their house clock and Blackwell's pocket watch were not synchronised, but the house clock seems to have been in close agreement with the tobacconist clock.

The police stations of that era synchronised their time via the telegraph and, as shown in my previous post, times deduced from the testimony of Reid and Phillips also fit with Lamb's time from the tobacconist clock. Schwartz passed the tobacconist clock and if a synchronisation correction is applied to Mortimer's times so that they fit with her hearing Smith pass at about 12:33, then we have an explanation of why she just missed seeing both Stride and Schwartz.

You make the point that the constables were human. So was Diemshitz, and the Coroner may have formed that opinion. I don't know if Diemshitz was lying or just firming up, for the inquest, the time he usually arrive at the yard. I place no stock in guess-estimates based on long ago clock sightings or pub closings, and have removed them from my consideration. I look at Blackwell's apparently unsynchronisied pocket watch and Diemshitz's alleged clock sighting against the times from Lamb, Smith and the Police stations and choose the later. I'm not saying this to promote any conspiracy theory, I'm just saying the times fit.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

I’ve always thought that behind the gates would have been the likeliest.

Hi Herlock,

Me again. If we only focus on an interuption due to the horse and cart approaching and the killer being JtR, he has just cut Stride's throat and needs a place to hide until the cart does or doesn't pass, a split second decision. Does he go towards the threat or away from it? Would it be more incriminating to be discovered hiding behind the gate or using the conveniences in the toilet block? FWIW, I tend to lean towards the latter.

Cheers, George

[Varqm]

Neil could hear Thain from a distance longer than IWEC to Commercial road, the pony is louder. Even before Diemschutz
turn left from Commercial Road into Berner st, its from there JTR decides whether it's going to Berner street or not in
the first place. There was sufficient light in Berner street. From his testimony Lamb could see from Commercial Rd.,
if somebody was running on the other end towards Fairclough but not the man's features.

By the time Diemschutz turn left into Berner St., it's too late. Although possible and more intriguing, it's hard to believe JTR was stuck
in there when Diemschutz and pony went inside the gates. In my opinion it was Goldstein, more so if he looked inside the IWEC as there were
still people singing, or somebody/something inside the IWEC that spooked him.
By the time Diemschutz arrived in the corner of Commercial rd/Berner st. JTR was gone already by possibly a minute or 2.
Or even he run as soon as he heard the pony even before Diemschutz reached the corner, maybe he made some kind of connection between the wagon and the only place in Berner St.with inhabitants still awake and singing.

[caz]

Hi Herlock,

The view Diemshitz had of the tobacconist clock would certainly have been at an angle and at a distance of considerably more than a couple of feet - half the building width + half the width of Berner Street, at a minimum, in a dark street on a bumpy cart after a long day. So he could have been mistaken. Why would he lie? There was an air of extreme tension against the jews following the Leather Apron headlines with attacks having been made on jewish merchants. Warren removed the GSG on the fear of anti-semitic violence. I think that the members of the IWEC would have understandably had concerns about the reaction of the public to another victim being found next to a jewish club. But Schwartz narrating a story implicating gentile suspects and his being chased from the scene may have been considered as a blame shifter, but ran the risk of witnesses not corroborating his story. For his story to work Stride must have crossed to the yard immediately after Smith passed and just before Mortimer came to her door. If she stayed there for 10 minutes she would have gone inside just before Schwartz went by at about 12:45. Remember, Schwartz had come from Commercial Road and may have just passed the tobacconist clock. But if this scenario is accepted, she also said she heard the pony cart about 4 minutes later, making that about 12:48.

I think that the police and coroner probably noticed the time descrepencies and attributed them to time guesses, and the addition of estimates from the last sighting of an unsychronised clock, and relied on the police constables times.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

Once again, it's Michael Richards's theory that Schwartz narrated his story as part of a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice, by implicating a Gentile [just the one] he claimed had assaulted Stride out on the street. It's also worth noting that Schwartz put the assault a full fifteen minutes before the time Louis D had already given for his discovery of her body on the club's premises.

But once again, Schwartz did not implicate a Gentile with his initial statement. Not even close. He presumed the assailant had called out "Lipski" to an accomplice of that name, who had then chased him from the scene. He implicated an assailant with a Jewish accomplice. It was down to Abberline to reinterpret this as most probably one Gentile assailant acting alone, who used "Lipski" as an anti-Semitic insult aimed at the obviously Jewish Schwartz, while the third man - Pipeman - was just another innocent witness caught up in the situation.

I think most of us who believe the assault happened have accepted Abberline's reinterpretation as the correct one, and that therefore Schwartz himself was confused over the dynamics of the situation and read it the wrong way. Under further questioning he admitted as much, which makes no sense if he saw it Abberline's way to begin with.

In short, Schwartz didn't set out to implicate a Gentile with his story, as Michael Richards has repeatedly insisted. That only happened through Abberline's intervention.

I apologise if you were not wrong-footed by anything posted by Michael Richards. It just looked that way, from the similar difficulty you had with how Schwartz originally reported the incident.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

I think there would be a distinct difference in sound between a pony and cart trotting down the middle of Berner Street and one slowing down and manoeuvring into the yard.

I thought the same thing, Gary.

Equally, if the killer was still in the yard to hear the pony and cart, he couldn't have afforded to assume it was going to go straight on past, and he'd have been wrong if he had done so. Surely he'd have erred on the side of caution and ducked out of sight if he might have been visible from the entrance.

Having said that, the place was busy enough in any case to have sent the killer packing - whoever he was - as soon as the deed was done. The knife and the fatal wound are enough proof of his intention to silence this woman for good, regardless of the risks of being seen there.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Neil could hear Thain from a distance longer than IWEC to Commercial road, the pony is louder. Even before Diemschutz
turn left from Commercial Road into Berner st, its from there JTR decides whether it's going to Berner street or not in
the first place. There was sufficient light in Berner street. From his testimony Lamb could see from Commercial Rd.,
if somebody was running on the other end towards Fairclough but not the man's features.

By the time Diemschutz turn left into Berner St., it's too late. Although possible and more intriguing, it's hard to believe JTR was stuck
in there when Diemschutz and pony went inside the gates. In my opinion it was Goldstein, more so if he looked inside the IWEC as there were
still people singing, or somebody/something inside the IWEC that spooked him.
By the time Diemschutz arrived in the corner of Commercial rd/Berner st. JTR was gone already by possibly a minute or 2.
Or even he run as soon as he heard the pony even before Diemschutz reached the corner, maybe he made some kind of connection between the wagon and the only place in Berner St.with inhabitants still awake and singing.

Hi Varqm,

I have a terrible sense of direction, but what bridge do you think Louis D would have used to cross the Thames from south to north, when returning from Westow Hill?

I ask because Tower Bridge, to the east, was not completed until 1894, so I had assumed Louis D would have turned right into Berner Street from Commercial Rd.

Not that this would have any bearing on your post!

Presumably the killer, whoever he was, would have preferred not to be seen by Louis at all, either in the yard or exiting it via the same gates as the pony and cart entered it. Even being seen away from the gates, making his way along Berner Street in either direction, would not have been ideal, so there would have been some risk involved if he was around to hear the pony's hooves. And that was something he couldn't have controlled. So that doesn't tell me whether or not he was around at that point. All we can safely say is that whatever measures he had to take, possibly on the spur of the moment, to minimise the risks of being seen after the event - by Louis or by anyone else - must have paid off.

We don't even know for sure that he was seen by anyone before the event, as there was up to a quarter of an hour in which he could have arrived unseen after the assault witnessed by Schwartz and Pipeman, which may have involved a disgruntled punter or a man on a moral crusade.

Love,

Caz
X

[Varqm]

Hi Varqm,

I have a terrible sense of direction, but what bridge do you think Louis D would have used to cross the Thames from south to north, when returning from Westow Hill?

I ask because Tower Bridge, to the east, was not completed until 1894, so I had assumed Louis D would have turned right into Berner Street from Commercial Rd.

Not that this would have any bearing on your post!

Presumably the killer, whoever he was, would have preferred not to be seen by Louis at all, either in the yard or exiting it via the same gates as the pony and cart entered it. Even being seen away from the gates, making his way along Berner Street in either direction, would not have been ideal, so there would have been some risk involved if he was around to hear the pony's hooves. And that was something he couldn't have controlled. So that doesn't tell me whether or not he was around at that point. All we can safely say is that whatever measures he had to take, possibly on the spur of the moment, to minimise the risks of being seen after the event - by Louis or by anyone else - must have paid off.

We don't even know for sure that he was seen by anyone before the event, as there was up to a quarter of an hour in which he could have arrived unseen after the assault witnessed by Schwartz and Pipeman, which may have involved a disgruntled punter or a man on a moral crusade.

Love,

Caz
X

Same thing with me, I looked at the possible route and found out about the Tower bridge opening to traffic after 1888..Probably the London bridge, the next closest.
In the Daily Telegraph casebook copy Diemschutz said "I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street", but there was no baker shop in the 1888 and 1889 PO dir.
In another newspaper it was actually the Harris tobacco shop -London Evening Standard October 2, 1888, on the left side coming from Batty street/Commercial rd.
We'll Diemschutz did not see anybody so he must have been gone by then. I can't believe he got stuck inside the IWEC property when Diemschutz finally arrived. The gates opened outwards to the street,I do not believe he hid there.
I believe Schwartz was lying like Packer, Hutchinson, Violena.

[DJA]

He prolly used the tunnel.

There was a baker at the corner of Berner Street,not at Commercial Road but.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Me again. If we only focus on an interuption due to the horse and cart approaching and the killer being JtR, he has just cut Stride's throat and needs a place to hide until the cart does or doesn't pass, a split second decision. Does he go towards the threat or away from it? Would it be more incriminating to be discovered hiding behind the gate or using the conveniences in the toilet block? FWIW, I tend to lean towards the latter.

Cheers, George

I’ve only just seen this post George and so my apologies for such a late response. I wouldn’t say that Diemschutz horse and cart was the only possible cause of a potential interruption (if interruption occurred of course) Sara Diemschutz talked about the side door being open (or partially open) so maybe the opening of this door was what interrupted the killer? Even if someone had gone to the outside loo they wouldn’t have seen the killer if they hadn’t looked to their left. As far as we know no member mentioned going out to the loo at that time but perhaps a member decided to keep that to himself as he didn’t want to be placed alone at the scene of a murder?

On the issue of the horse and cart being heard in advance I’d agree that the killer would have heard it approach but in the heat of the moment it might just have appeared the background noise of a passing cart until it suddenly occurred to him that it was slowing down. By which time it was just turning into the gateway. I’m not saying that this must have been what happened but I it’s possible.

It’s also possible that something else ‘spooked’ the killer. A voice from one of the nearby cottages, someone passing the gateway, a light being turned on.

Of course it’s possible that the killer wasn’t interrupted and simply intended no more than cutting her throat.

[Varqm]

He prolly used the tunnel.

There was a baker at the corner of Berner Street,not at Commercial Road but.

I think the tunnel was used by a train company, connecting to one station they built, the original one, besides\near Working lads institute.

[DJA]

[Wickerman]

..... The gates opened outwards to the street,I do not believe he hid there.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?