The Juwes Graffiti

[Abby Normal]

If Pipeman was not the killer, that leaves three scenarios:

1. Stride ventured into the darkness with the man who'd just assaulted her
2. Schwartz was lying or mistaken in who or what he saw
3. Someone else came along to kill Stride

hi harry
1. is a possibility. 2. no evidence he was lying or mistaken and his testimony is coroberated. 3. I dont go much for phantom suspects.

but there is a number of other scenarios and the one I favor-BS man/ripper actually cut her throat out in the street in a fit of anger and bolts, stride instinctively puts her hand to her throat (there was evidence of blood on her hand) and stumbles into the yard towards perceived help of the voices coming from the club and expires in the yard.

[JeffHamm]

hi harry
1. is a possibility. 2. no evidence he was lying or mistaken and his testimony is coroberated. 3. I dont go much for phantom suspects.

but there is a number of other scenarios and the one I favor-BS man/ripper actually cut her throat out in the street in a fit of anger and bolts, stride instinctively puts her hand to her throat (there was evidence of blood on her hand) and stumbles into the yard towards perceived help of the voices coming from the club and expires in the yard.

Or, B.S. continues his assault on her. She gets up, having held her cachous as the first throw to the ground is not overly violent according to some, flees into the ally away from B.S. and towards the door, he grabs her scarf and that halts her and gags/injures her throat just long enough to prevent a scream, he puts an arm around her neck and in his grasp he's pinned her hand/arm (the one with cachous), chokes her to the point he can put her to the ground, cuts her throat, and leaves.

No idea why he attacks her, or why he leaves without mutilations (either he never was going to, or something spooked him).

I'm sure there are bits of the above that are wrong, I just know from experience that if I don't mention the cachous they'll come up as proof B.S. couldn't have attacked her (but while many have tried, I still cannot understand why B.S. can't attack Stride because she's holding cachous, but some other unknown person can attack Stride despite her holding the cachous). I don't think Stride has to "accompany" her assailant into the ally, he just has to be between her and other routes of escape.

And that doesn't sound like JtR to me, but he's not a robot either.

- Jeff

[GBinOz]

Or, B.S. continues his assault on her. She gets up, having held her cachous as the first throw to the ground is not overly violent according to some, flees into the ally away from B.S. and towards the door, he grabs her scarf and that halts her and gags/injures her throat just long enough to prevent a scream, he puts an arm around her neck and in his grasp he's pinned her hand/arm (the one with cachous), chokes her to the point he can put her to the ground, cuts her throat, and leaves.

No idea why he attacks her, or why he leaves without mutilations (either he never was going to, or something spooked him).

I'm sure there are bits of the above that are wrong, I just know from experience that if I don't mention the cachous they'll come up as proof B.S. couldn't have attacked her (but while many have tried, I still cannot understand why B.S. can't attack Stride because she's holding cachous, but some other unknown person can attack Stride despite her holding the cachous). I don't think Stride has to "accompany" her assailant into the ally, he just has to be between her and other routes of escape.

And that doesn't sound like JtR to me, but he's not a robot either.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I like your theory but wonder if she was actually thrown to the ground as part of an assault, or whether as BSM tried to pull her into the street, she twisted around, broke free and fell to the ground making sounds that were not very loud because she knew the person involved. What happens next?

1. Stride decides to end the argument and walks away towards the side door of the club, followed by your murder scenario from above.

2. Pipeman has returned from seeing Schwartz off and scares off BSM, consoles Stride and offers to escort her to the side door and again, same scenario as above.

If we roll the credits for these parts do we see Kosminski as BSM and Tumbelty as Pipeman?

The only other speculation required is... where is Parcelman??

Cheers, George

[Abby Normal]

Or, B.S. continues his assault on her. She gets up, having held her cachous as the first throw to the ground is not overly violent according to some, flees into the ally away from B.S. and towards the door, he grabs her scarf and that halts her and gags/injures her throat just long enough to prevent a scream, he puts an arm around her neck and in his grasp he's pinned her hand/arm (the one with cachous), chokes her to the point he can put her to the ground, cuts her throat, and leaves.

No idea why he attacks her, or why he leaves without mutilations (either he never was going to, or something spooked him).

I'm sure there are bits of the above that are wrong, I just know from experience that if I don't mention the cachous they'll come up as proof B.S. couldn't have attacked her (but while many have tried, I still cannot understand why B.S. can't attack Stride because she's holding cachous, but some other unknown person can attack Stride despite her holding the cachous). I don't think Stride has to "accompany" her assailant into the ally, he just has to be between her and other routes of escape.

And that doesn't sound like JtR to me, but he's not a robot either.

- Jeff

agree with the above scenario too! no he wasnt a robot. IMHO it was a pissed off ripper who had spent considerable time (and money) on her trying to finagle her into an alley and finally lost his temper.

[Abby Normal]

Or, B.S. continues his assault on her. She gets up, having held her cachous as the first throw to the ground is not overly violent according to some, flees into the ally away from B.S. and towards the door, he grabs her scarf and that halts her and gags/injures her throat just long enough to prevent a scream, he puts an arm around her neck and in his grasp he's pinned her hand/arm (the one with cachous), chokes her to the point he can put her to the ground, cuts her throat, and leaves.

No idea why he attacks her, or why he leaves without mutilations (either he never was going to, or something spooked him).

I'm sure there are bits of the above that are wrong, I just know from experience that if I don't mention the cachous they'll come up as proof B.S. couldn't have attacked her (but while many have tried, I still cannot understand why B.S. can't attack Stride because she's holding cachous, but some other unknown person can attack Stride despite her holding the cachous). I don't think Stride has to "accompany" her assailant into the ally, he just has to be between her and other routes of escape.

And that doesn't sound like JtR to me, but he's not a robot either.

- Jeff

oh and dead on about the cashoo. so ...she couldnt have been killed by BS man because she would have dropped the cashoo- but she can be killed by someone else later and hold on to the cashoo. yeah right. -all it does is kick it down the line-but this time to a phantom attacker. the whole cashoo argument is ridiculous.

and to go so far as to rule out a suspect (one that fits the description of many other witnesses no less) because she was found holding cashoo is one of the stupidest arguments ive seen on here.

[JeffHamm]

agree with the above scenario too! no he wasnt a robot. IMHO it was a pissed off ripper who had spent considerable time (and money) on her trying to finagle her into an alley and finally lost his temper.

Hi Abby Normal,

Provided, of course, B.S. and Stride had interacted earlier, which might be argued to be the case but is not an established fact. From Schwartz's testimony, B.S. could just as easily be seeing Stride for the first time, and descriptions we have of men seen with Stride that night are generic enough that correspondence with B.S. (or with Lawende's man) could easily be coincidental. Men wore hats, peaked hats were common, mustaches common, and dark coats and trousers the norm. Our descriptions of their "looks" provide little more than saying "she was with a man, commonly dressed for the time and place."

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

oh and dead on about the cashoo. so ...she couldnt have been killed by BS man because she would have dropped the cashoo- but she can be killed by someone else later and hold on to the cashoo. yeah right. -all it does is kick it down the line-but this time to a phantom attacker. the whole cashoo argument is ridiculous.

and to go so far as to rule out a suspect (one that fits the description of many other witnesses no less) because she was found holding cashoo is one of the stupidest arguments ive seen on here.

There are some very knowledgeable people though who have views on this, though, that cannot be entirely dismissed. I've never really understood the argument, but I know it includes making certain assumptions about the level of aggression in how she was thrown down by B.S., and then assumptions about how she reacted. What I've presented also makes a lot of unproven assumptions, but I present them to demonstrate that evaluating this whole series of events entirely depends upon the assumptions one makes about the evidence, but not the evidence as it stands by itself. I can't, and don't, say what I outlined "was what happened", it's based upon my imparting unverified information - but I just impart different unverified information.

It then comes down to whether or not the unverified information I suggest seems as plausible as the unverified information imparted in other explanations. I think both can be viewed as within sufficient degrees of plausibility that it means we have a situation that cannot be resolved without new evidence. I suspect, though, that evidence no longer exists and we may be at a point that cannot be resolved and so are left with a few equally acceptable alternatives, of which at most one can be true.

- Jeff

[DJA]

Stride's last action was to take the cachous out of Jack's hand in the alley.
Jack simultaneously shut down her arteries as previously explained by Prosector.
She had a death grip on them.
Not that complicated.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby Normal,

Provided, of course, B.S. and Stride had interacted earlier, which might be argued to be the case but is not an established fact. From Schwartz's testimony, B.S. could just as easily be seeing Stride for the first time, and descriptions we have of men seen with Stride that night are generic enough that correspondence with B.S. (or with Lawende's man) could easily be coincidental. Men wore hats, peaked hats were common, mustaches common, and dark coats and trousers the norm. Our descriptions of their "looks" provide little more than saying "she was with a man, commonly dressed for the time and place."

- Jeff

thats a pretty big coincidence in my book. seven different people saw a man with a peaked cap the night of the double event-schwartz, smith, marshall, lawende and his two companions, and the anon church street sighting. now stack that up against the percentage of men who wore peaked caps at the time. if its not a hundred percent(and of course its not-probably more like thirty if that) then more than likely the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night. throw in the strong impression peaked cap man made on Abberline and id say its a slam dunk.

[Abby Normal]

There are some very knowledgeable people though who have views on this, though, that cannot be entirely dismissed. I've never really understood the argument, but I know it includes making certain assumptions about the level of aggression in how she was thrown down by B.S., and then assumptions about how she reacted. What I've presented also makes a lot of unproven assumptions, but I present them to demonstrate that evaluating this whole series of events entirely depends upon the assumptions one makes about the evidence, but not the evidence as it stands by itself. I can't, and don't, say what I outlined "was what happened", it's based upon my imparting unverified information - but I just impart different unverified information.

It then comes down to whether or not the unverified information I suggest seems as plausible as the unverified information imparted in other explanations. I think both can be viewed as within sufficient degrees of plausibility that it means we have a situation that cannot be resolved without new evidence. I suspect, though, that evidence no longer exists and we may be at a point that cannot be resolved and so are left with a few equally acceptable alternatives, of which at most one can be true.

- Jeff

your a wishy washy squiggly little fellow : ) I was trying agree with you lol

[JeffHamm]

Stride's last action was to take the cachous out of Jack's hand in the alley.
Jack simultaneously shut down her arteries as previously explained by Prosector.
She had a death grip on them.
Not that complicated.

Yes, once one makes a set of unverified assumptions to start with the consequences usually end up following pretty simply. It's the fact that we get to make whatever unverified assumptions we want that leaves the actual situation unknown. Make different unverified assumptions at the start, and you pretty simply end up in a different conclusion.

- Jeff

[DJA]

Yes, once one makes a set of unverified assumptions to start with the consequences usually end up following pretty simply. It's the fact that we get to make whatever unverified assumptions we want that leaves the actual situation unknown. Make different unverified assumptions at the start, and you pretty simply end up in a different conclusion.

- Jeff

Where do you "think" the cachous came from and why were they not found after BS Man pulled her from the alley?
Do you realize who Prosector is and his expertise?
One thing for sure,she was not letting go of the cachous because she had a death grip on them due to shock.
Handy if your IQ is larger than your shoe size.

[JeffHamm]

thats a pretty big coincidence in my book. seven different people saw a man with a peaked cap the night of the double event-schwartz, smith, marshall, lawende and his two companions, and the anon church street sighting. now stack that up against the percentage of men who wore peaked caps at the time. if its not a hundred percent(and of course its not-probably more like thirty if that) then more than likely the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night. throw in the strong impression peaked cap man made on Abberline and id say its a slam dunk.

Hi Abby Normal,

It's not how many people saw a peaked capped man, it's how many different times was a peaked cap man seen. Meaning, you can't count Lawende and 2 companions as independent sightings - they all saw the same peaked cap man, so at most you have 5 different sightings, not 7.

Now, if the percentage of men wearing peaked caps is 100%, then the probability of JtR wearing a peaked cap is also 100% (minus whatever probability you think appropriate for "Jill the Ripper" I suppose), because every man is now wearing one. And, the probability of 5 different men being sighted and yet all wearing a peaked cap is also 100%, so in that case, wearing a peaked cap provides no information about whether or not it could be considered likely the 5 sightings are of the same man, or of up to 5 different men.

Peaked caps/hats cover a wide range of different hats, deer stalkers have a peak (two, one front and back), a "captain's hat" has a peak, a modern baseball cap has a peak, a "cheese cutter" has a peak, and so forth. So when two witnesses say "a peaked cap/hat", we don't even know if they are describing the same type of peaked cap/hat. However, we do know that Marshal describes a "round cap with a small peak like a sailor would wear", which dovetails with Lawende's description that the man has the appearance of a sailor. But Smith describes a deerstalker at the inquest, which is unlike a "round hat with a small peak like a sailor would wear". So while both are "peaked caps/hats", they are not the same type of peaked headgear, suggesting Smith and Marshal may have seen two different men, and if both did see Stride, it means she was in the company of multiple men that night, and at most only one of them can be JtR.

Packer describes a "wide awake hat", which has a brim, not a peak.

And the anonymouse Church Lane sighting describes another sailor type hat with a peak.

Schwartz describes a "black cap with peak", which is pretty vague, and if that is a cheese cutter (for example), it's a 3rd man, with a peaked cap. Pipeman had a hat with a brim, so not a peaked cap (so we know peaked caps are not 100% worn - there's now at least two fellow out there without one). But we now have 5/7 men, potentially different men, wearing peaked caps, and 2/7 with brims (pipeman and packer's man).

So if the "rate of peaked caps" is around 5/7, then the chance of seeing 5 random different men all wearing peaked caps is about 18.6%, and that's pretty common, certainly not in "slam dunk" territory in my books.

Now, there are 3 sightings that correspond with a bit more detail, the "sailor's cap" type thing, but sadly one of them is the anonymous Church Lane sighting which is never found anywhere else (we don't know who said it, it's not mentioned in any official police records, etc), so how much weight we give that is of concern. But B.S., if we presume he's Stride's killer, isn't one of those 3, nor is pipeman, nor is Packer's grape buyer (the last two are not even wearing a peaked hat of any sort).

So if sailor's hat a la Lawende is JtR's hat, and Stride is a victim of JtR, then B.S. and pipeman leave, and one of the sailor hatted men shows up again.

Or, the witness testimony is questionable, and some sailor hats were not sailor hats, and some peaked hats were not peaked hats, and some brim hats were peaked hats, and all the hats may or may not be similar, and so on.

I think it's safe to say JtR probably wore a hat, most men did. Whether or not any of these sightings are even of the same man, let alone that man being JtR, is not something I would bet too strongly on based upon nothing more than some fairly generic descriptions that include "peaked headgear".

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Where do you "think" the cachous came from and why were they not found after BS Man pulled her from the alley?
Do you realize who Prosector is and his expertise?
One thing for sure,she was not letting go of the cachous because she had a death grip on them due to shock.
Handy if your IQ is larger than your shoe size.

Hi DJA,

I suspect the cachous at some point came from a store. Whether they were bought by Stride's killer, as you are speculating, or whether Stride purchased them, which you have no evidence based reason to preclude, I don't know - note the lack of evidence.

No, but it's irrelevant. Presuming she was holding the cachous at the time she was killed, while I think that probable, itself isn't even a guarantee, particularly if her killer was JtR. If he was in the mood to "leave messages" (see GSG and apron debates), placing them in her hand after death could be his idea at that point in time (I don't really ascribe to that, but it's a possibility we cannot rule out based upon the evidence we do have).

Sure, if your speculation that she did have a death grip shock response is correct, which cannot be proven, that works. If they're placed there, or if the specifics of how she was assaulted precluded her letting go of them, however, then there is no need for your speculation to be true. It's an assumption.

Oh, and by the way, insults are most commonly resorted to when one has nothing of worth to say. They are vacuous and contribute nothing, and your post would have been better without. But you are free to do with that as you choose.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

your a wishy washy squiggly little fellow : ) I was trying agree with you lol

Ha ha! I know, I've said so myself many times. It's just that Stride is the case in the C5 that I think we have to be the most cautious about. It's too easy to develop tunnel vision and to either see her only as a victim of JtR, or only as not. As such, I neither confirm nor deny her inclusion.

- Jeff