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  • #91
    Originally posted by Harry D View Post

    What was the motive?

    At this point, all Schwartz can swear to is a guy manhandling a woman, hardly an abnormal occurrence in the rougher parts of the East End. It only became noteworthy after the woman identified was found murdered.

    Unless there was a reason to silence Stride, I think the killer would've cut his losses (so to speak) and moved on. Why risk the hangman's noose when you've only been seen roughing up a woman so far?

    And yes, we still have the small matter of the cachous. The man tried to drag Liz away from the club, then threw on the footpath. She was found inside the yard, holding the cachous in her hand, which would suggest she felt safe with the man who killed her. I don't see her dropping her guard in a dark alley with a guy who'd just been violent towards her.

    Did 'Pipeman' scare off Schwartz and play the good samaritan before killing Stride?
    Good point, Harry. I could easily see the killer - Pipeman or A.N.Other - playing the sympathy card after BS man left to put Stride at her ease. More like the couple seen later near Mitre Square. But what motive would this good samaritan have had for killing her? If he was the ripper I could see him trying to soft soap her into going somewhere less busy with him, and cutting his losses if she refused. The police would naturally be looking for BS man if Schwartz reported the earlier assault, so the killer would have been relatively safe to cut her throat and move on.

    Love,

    Caz
    X
    "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Harry D View Post

      What was the motive?

      At this point, all Schwartz can swear to is a guy manhandling a woman, hardly an abnormal occurrence in the rougher parts of the East End. It only became noteworthy after the woman identified was found murdered.

      Unless there was a reason to silence Stride, I think the killer would've cut his losses (so to speak) and moved on. Why risk the hangman's noose when you've only been seen roughing up a woman so far?

      And yes, we still have the small matter of the cachous. The man tried to drag Liz away from the club, then threw on the footpath. She was found inside the yard, holding the cachous in her hand, which would suggest she felt safe with the man who killed her. I don't see her dropping her guard in a dark alley with a guy who'd just been violent towards her.

      Did 'Pipeman' scare off Schwartz and play the good samaritan before killing Stride?
      I have always suspected pipe man as the potential killer!
      Best Regards,

      Tristan

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Harry D View Post

        What was the motive?

        At this point, all Schwartz can swear to is a guy manhandling a woman, hardly an abnormal occurrence in the rougher parts of the East End. It only became noteworthy after the woman identified was found murdered.

        Unless there was a reason to silence Stride, I think the killer would've cut his losses (so to speak) and moved on. Why risk the hangman's noose when you've only been seen roughing up a woman so far?

        And yes, we still have the small matter of the cachous. The man tried to drag Liz away from the club, then threw on the footpath. She was found inside the yard, holding the cachous in her hand, which would suggest she felt safe with the man who killed her. I don't see her dropping her guard in a dark alley with a guy who'd just been violent towards her.

        Did 'Pipeman' scare off Schwartz and play the good samaritan before killing Stride?
        hi harry
        Ive often wondered that too. but would the ripper or any killer, try to attempt that with all the commotion going on? and would stride be suddenly willing after just being roughed up? I dont see it.
        "Is all that we see or seem
        but a dream within a dream?"

        -Edgar Allan Poe


        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

        -Frederick G. Abberline

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

          hi harry
          Ive often wondered that too. but would the ripper or any killer, try to attempt that with all the commotion going on? and would stride be suddenly willing after just being roughed up? I dont see it.
          Hello Abby,

          What commotion are you referring to? According to Schwartz, Stride was simply thrown to the ground which may or may not have simply been an accident. I don't know if Stride was soliciting but any prostitute in Whitechapel who called it a night after being hassled a bit would probably have starved to death.

          c.d.

          Comment


          • #95
            Serial killers are opportunistic and predatory. It could be that Pipeman saw a situation that he could use to his advantage. He made sure to chase off Schwarz, then when he came back he finds Liz a little roughed up and poses as a good samaritan to lure her into the yard,

            Liz might have been all too willing to duck into there, in case BS came back.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Harry D View Post
              Serial killers are opportunistic and predatory. It could be that Pipeman saw a situation that he could use to his advantage. He made sure to chase off Schwarz, then when he came back he finds Liz a little roughed up and poses as a good samaritan to lure her into the yard,

              Liz might have been all too willing to duck into there, in case BS came back.
              Incorrect assessment of serial killers. Yes, they are more likely to be psychopaths who would generally make them more prone to impulsive behaviour, but many serial killers spend time planning, organising and even stalking victims. The behaviour of JtR is one of organised thinking. He planned these murders in his head before he did them. The focused manner in which he let his victims lead him to a "safe place", subdued them and cut their throats methodically to kill them means they were not impulsive. They were planned. The unplanned element is likely to come from what he does when they are dead; that is his enjoyment time. Your scenario does not chime well with the actual murder style of JtR.

              Stride's murder only fits the style of murder granted. Still, interruption remains the best answer for that, considering another victim was killed in the style of the above an hour later, which is unmistakably JtR. It's simply more than coincidence.

              We can argue on whether the victims were specifically targeted or not. My hunch would lean to not specifically.
              "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
              - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by c.d. View Post

                Hello Abby,

                What commotion are you referring to? According to Schwartz, Stride was simply thrown to the ground which may or may not have simply been an accident. I don't know if Stride was soliciting but any prostitute in Whitechapel who called it a night after being hassled a bit would probably have starved to death.

                c.d.
                hi cd
                yes commotion. a woman being roughed up, yelling out, the rougher upper shouting at a passerby. the passerby scurrying off. noise from the club.

                well if she didnt call it a night its just as likely, if not more so, that she forgave bs man and then went willingly into the yard with him. and from all the evidence we have, pipeman scarpered off also.
                "Is all that we see or seem
                but a dream within a dream?"

                -Edgar Allan Poe


                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                -Frederick G. Abberline

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                  Serial killers are opportunistic and predatory. It could be that Pipeman saw a situation that he could use to his advantage. He made sure to chase off Schwarz, then when he came back he finds Liz a little roughed up and poses as a good samaritan to lure her into the yard,

                  Liz might have been all too willing to duck into there, in case BS came back.
                  perhaps. i just find this scenario highly unlikely though. see my above post to cd.
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                    Serial killers are opportunistic and predatory. It could be that Pipeman saw a situation that he could use to his advantage. He made sure to chase off Schwarz, then when he came back he finds Liz a little roughed up and poses as a good samaritan to lure her into the yard,

                    Liz might have been all too willing to duck into there, in case BS came back.
                    Hello Harry,

                    But that scenario suffers from the same problem as having the B.S. man as Stride's killer. The Pipe Man would have been seen by Schwartz and the B.S. man (I am assuming they did not know each other) and thus they could have identified him.

                    c.d.

                    Comment


                    • Hi c.d,

                      I'm not sure Pipeman would have worried about BS man ever coming forward. After all, BS man had been seen assaulting the murdered woman, by both Pipeman and Schwartz. If BS was tracked down, thanks to Schwartz's description, what could he say?

                      BS man: "Wasn't me officer. I left the woman alive after throwing her to the ground. Must have been one of the other two, who returned and done her in."

                      Love,

                      Caz
                      X
                      "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by erobitha View Post
                        Incorrect assessment of serial killers. Yes, they are more likely to be psychopaths who would generally make them more prone to impulsive behaviour, but many serial killers spend time planning, organising and even stalking victims. The behaviour of JtR is one of organised thinking. He planned these murders in his head before he did them. The focused manner in which he let his victims lead him to a "safe place", subdued them and cut their throats methodically to kill them means they were not impulsive. They were planned. The unplanned element is likely to come from what he does when they are dead; that is his enjoyment time. Your scenario does not chime well with the actual murder style of JtR.

                        Stride's murder only fits the style of murder granted. Still, interruption remains the best answer for that, considering another victim was killed in the style of the above an hour later, which is unmistakably JtR. It's simply more than coincidence.

                        We can argue on whether the victims were specifically targeted or not. My hunch would lean to not specifically.
                        What is your point of contention? That serial killers are not opportunists?

                        While there are plenty of killers who deliberately troll the streets for victims, there have been long-haul truckers who have murdered hitchhikers and prostitutes. Same for murderers who prey on women whose vehicles have broken down. Not all serial murders are meticulously planned, sometimes the killer just happens to find the right victim at the right moment.

                        Perhaps it is too convenient that moments after Stride was man-handled, the real killer happens to swoop on in. I'm far from convinced that Pipeman was the killer. However, if Schwartz is to be believed, I'm even less convinced it was Broad Shoulders.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                          perhaps. i just find this scenario highly unlikely though. see my above post to cd.
                          If Pipeman was not the killer, that leaves three scenarios:

                          1. Stride ventured into the darkness with the man who'd just assaulted her
                          2. Schwartz was lying or mistaken in who or what he saw
                          3. Someone else came along to kill Stride

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Harry D View Post

                            What is your point of contention? That serial killers are not opportunists?
                            By virtue of being murderers, they are automatically opportunists. My contention is Pipeman or even BS man being the killers (for slightly different reasons). Witnesses are awkward things. Best to keep them as few as possible. That is not happening here - there is at least two and each one was directly involved. Just does not match the behaviour pattern. The suggestion is Pipeman "finishes the job" somebody else started is not plausible. His desire was not an opportunity to just kill. Killing is the admin. They wanted some privacy to engage in post mortem mutilation. That does not happen here or even is possible.

                            I have similar issues with BS man.

                            Schwartz will remain an unreliable witness for me.
                            "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                            - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                              2. Schwartz was lying or mistaken in who or what he saw
                              Nailed it.
                              "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                              - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by clark2710 View Post
                                in the message, The Juwes are not the men who will be blamed for nothing, I've read about it being a dialect of the region indicating a certain type person, that the misspelling indicating the writer was a certain nationality. Which are believed to be more believable?
                                Juwes is the Masonic spelling for the 3 Juwes/Jews Jubela, Jubelo and Jubelum who murdered Hiram Abiff in the Masonic ritual. Though I don't believe that JTR was a mason (or masons) and it is possible that the spelling Juwes was used/known in other contemporary culture other than just masonic.

                                If the JTR letters are possibly genuine not fake then one letter says "I'm not a Yid (Jew) not yet a foreign skipper but I'm your own lighthearted friend" which I take to mean that he/she is not a Jew nor a foreigner/sailor but British (including Irish).

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