The Juwes Graffiti

[caz]

What was the motive?

At this point, all Schwartz can swear to is a guy manhandling a woman, hardly an abnormal occurrence in the rougher parts of the East End. It only became noteworthy after the woman identified was found murdered.

Unless there was a reason to silence Stride, I think the killer would've cut his losses (so to speak) and moved on. Why risk the hangman's noose when you've only been seen roughing up a woman so far?

And yes, we still have the small matter of the cachous. The man tried to drag Liz away from the club, then threw on the footpath. She was found inside the yard, holding the cachous in her hand, which would suggest she felt safe with the man who killed her. I don't see her dropping her guard in a dark alley with a guy who'd just been violent towards her.

Did 'Pipeman' scare off Schwartz and play the good samaritan before killing Stride?

Good point, Harry. I could easily see the killer - Pipeman or A.N.Other - playing the sympathy card after BS man left to put Stride at her ease. More like the couple seen later near Mitre Square. But what motive would this good samaritan have had for killing her? If he was the ripper I could see him trying to soft soap her into going somewhere less busy with him, and cutting his losses if she refused. The police would naturally be looking for BS man if Schwartz reported the earlier assault, so the killer would have been relatively safe to cut her throat and move on.

Love,

Caz
X

[mpriestnall]

Lechmere the ripper comes to mind

Not only the 5, he killed torsos and every woman in London, and the one behind all unsolved murders in the east and west end!

But this doesn't leave any victims for those other serial killers, Schwartz, Hutchinson etc!

Every time JTR turned up at a murder scene, he found a less-than-innocent bystander had done his job for him. No wonder
he topped himself/ended up in an asylum!

[The Baron]

Lechmere the ripper comes to mind

Not only the 5, he killed torsos and every woman in London, and the one behind all unsolved murders in the east and west end!

[c.d.]

Too kind, CD. Hope everything's gravy with your good self?

Can't promise how long I'll be around. My Ripper mania ain't what it used to be.

I'm okay. Thanks for asking. Except that it is so damn hot here (Washington, D.C.).

Yeah, my Ripper mania ain't what it used to be either. I am constantly amazed at the ability of some posters on here to beat a dead horse. Let it go for God's sake or at least give it a rest.

c.d.

[Harry D]

Harry D, my man! Welcome back, Sir. You have been gone too long. Another clear, well thought out post as usual.

c.d.

Too kind, CD. Hope everything's gravy with your good self?

Can't promise how long I'll be around. My Ripper mania ain't what it used to be.

[c.d.]

Harry D, my man! Welcome back, Sir. You have been gone too long. Another clear, well thought out post as usual.

c.d.

[Harry D]

I find it perfectly believable that Stride's killer had concerns that he was seen by Schwarz, might well see other people turning up any second, and thus made a quick slash and dash move.

What was the motive?

At this point, all Schwartz can swear to is a guy manhandling a woman, hardly an abnormal occurrence in the rougher parts of the East End. It only became noteworthy after the woman identified was found murdered.

Unless there was a reason to silence Stride, I think the killer would've cut his losses (so to speak) and moved on. Why risk the hangman's noose when you've only been seen roughing up a woman so far?

And yes, we still have the small matter of the cachous. The man tried to drag Liz away from the club, then threw on the footpath. She was found inside the yard, holding the cachous in her hand, which would suggest she felt safe with the man who killed her. I don't see her dropping her guard in a dark alley with a guy who'd just been violent towards her.

Did 'Pipeman' scare off Schwartz and play the good samaritan before killing Stride?

[caz]

Jeff

When someone is cutting a victims throat in haste, I am sure there are likley to be differences between the victims wounds in how the killer carries out the cutting. He will never inflict an identical wound so as to be able for us to say the wounds to the necks of these victims are what links them to the same killer.

I have come to the conclusion that she was not a Ripper victim to many facts surrounding the murder to safely say she was killed by the same killer as the rest. You have already highlighted some of those factors.-

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trev,

Quick question for you. If you were able to question a suspect for the Mitre Square murder, would you ask him, while you had him there, where he was and what he was doing between 12 midnight and 1am? Or would you consider that of no possible relevance to your enquiries?

Love,

Caz
X

[JeffHamm]

Jeff

When someone is cutting a victims throat in haste, I am sure there are likley to be differences between the victims wounds in how the killer carries out the cutting. He will never inflict an identical wound so as to be able for us to say the wounds to the necks of these victims are what links them to the same killer.

I have come to the conclusion that she was not a Ripper victim to many facts surrounding the murder to safely say she was killed by the same killer as the rest. You have already highlighted some of those factors.-

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

I agree, it's not enough to conclude she was a victim of JtR, hence my being if two minds. Can't fault anyone for making a choice, despite my inability to do so.

- Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,

I'm sure nothing that you've not already dismissed as you appear to have come to the conclusion she is definitely not a victim of JtR. But, the inquest description of her throat wound is almost identical to that described for Eddowes, with differences being very minor (no injury to the vessels on the right side for Stride, small hole opened in them for Eddowes, type differences). Effectively, it looks very much like the same person doing the same thing again..Jeff

Jeff

When someone is cutting a victims throat in haste, I am sure there are likley to be differences between the victims wounds in how the killer carries out the cutting. He will never inflict an identical wound so as to be able for us to say the wounds to the necks of these victims are what links them to the same killer.

I have come to the conclusion that she was not a Ripper victim to many facts surrounding the murder to safely say she was killed by the same killer as the rest. You have already highlighted some of those factors.-

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[erobitha]

New member, first post here, so pardon my jumping in on this. With Trevor Marriott's last post hanging out there, my first thought in answer would be that Stride's throat was cut, in similar fashion to accepted JTR victims. That seems a fairly common dynamic to the other murders. Given murders as a whole in London at the time were a fairly rare occurrence, per my understanding of the figures in the year immediately preceding 1888, the idea that suddenly there are two distinct murderers in the East End, both slashing throats, seems unlikely to me. Could be the first "copy cat" killer, but the "trade name" created by the Dear Boss letter is not yet public. Only two (three if counting George Yard) murders in, there is not much to motivate a copy cat dynamic, in my mind. I find it perfectly believable that Stride's killer had concerns that he was seen by Schwarz, might well see other people turning up any second, and thus made a quick slash and dash move. I understand it's only 15 minutes between Schwarz' passing and the arrival of Diemschutz. Not sure if Stride showed signs of strangulation before slicing, as Nichols and Chapman may have indicated. That would be another element to consider in the vein of being rushed or interrupted on Berner Street.

Moving on, my main interest in posting here was on the topic of the graffiti on Goulston St. I understand that Sir Charles Warren (among others with Metropolitan) were anxious to erase this before daylight, to keep the general public from seeing it. What I've never seen or heard is a discussion of how it was written, apparently within a narrow 1 hour and fifteen minute window following the Eddowes murder, in such poor light as must have been present. So if the murder is responsible for the graffiti, it seems he must have had his own lamp or some source of light, or he might well struggle to write anything legible, spelling and grammatical concerns aside. With suggestions from some PCs at the scene that the chalk seemed faded rather than fresh, this suggests that it is not left by JTR, who may have been unaware of its presence when he dropped the apron. If he is carrying a piece of chalk, is he also carrying a source of light as well? Just food for thought, if anyone cares to consider the question.

Welcome. Always good to see new people adding to the debates.

I would be inclined to agree with your assessment of Stride’s murder most likely being JTR. For the reasons you outlined and for the fact another rare death ‘carotid artery haemorrhage’ occurred around an hour after this one. All logical evidence points to a disturbance.

You will need to believe Schwartz is a real witness for your assessment but I do believe fear of interruption did change proceedings in that murder.

How does one visually ascertain faded from not faded chalk on a wall? It was clearly visible enough to be seen by the officer who found the apron. Transcribed by numerous police officers and visible enough to worry Warren of a riot that never happened even though it appeared in the papers a few days later. Also the wall was not completely in darkness. It was slightly inside from the street so there would be an element of ambient lighting. Not much but then it was only a few words.

[JeffHamm]

What aspects do you think link her to the other murders?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

I'm sure nothing that you've not already dismissed as you appear to have come to the conclusion she is definitely not a victim of JtR. But, the inquest description of her throat wound is almost identical to that described for Eddowes, with differences being very minor (no injury to the vessels on the right side for Stride, small hole opened in them for Eddowes, type differences). Effectively, it looks very much like the same person doing the same thing again. Other things, the murder is at night after the pubs have closed (although Chapman, and some argue Kelly, were killed in the early morning - times pretty much span anything, so no great indicator), murder is in a semi-out of the way location, but at the same time, can expect traffic (Buck's Row, Hanbury Street, Mitre Square, all locations offer short periods of privacy, but the body will be found, and relatively soon - Berner's street fits that too). Her throat was cut while on the ground, yet there's no sign of a struggle, nor does anyone hear anything. Obviously, the fact that Eddowes, killed with near identical throat cutting technique within the hour and not far off, has to be considered, either it's a massive coincidence, or it's the same person. Stride was known to have engaged in prostitution, at least when younger, and may have been doing so at the time or at least been assumed to have been doing so - this appears to be JtR's preferred victim so Stride, at least in JtR's eyes, may have been "his type".

Basically, all things that have been mentioned before, and which you've rejected out of hand by saying it's not enough. But then, I've said it's not enough to convince me she is a victim, so we agree on that. I just don't think the evidence that she wasn't a victim of JtR is any more compelling, she wasn't mutilated, she might not have been soliciting, the similarity of the wounds may be a coincidence, it might have been her boyfriend, etc. Hence, I have no opinion as to her being, or not being, a victim of JtR. I think it's worth considering she may be, and I think it's just as worth considering she may not be.

- Jeff

[Jack of all Blades]

New member, first post here, so pardon my jumping in on this. With Trevor Marriott's last post hanging out there, my first thought in answer would be that Stride's throat was cut, in similar fashion to accepted JTR victims. That seems a fairly common dynamic to the other murders. Given murders as a whole in London at the time were a fairly rare occurrence, per my understanding of the figures in the year immediately preceding 1888, the idea that suddenly there are two distinct murderers in the East End, both slashing throats, seems unlikely to me. Could be the first "copy cat" killer, but the "trade name" created by the Dear Boss letter is not yet public. Only two (three if counting George Yard) murders in, there is not much to motivate a copy cat dynamic, in my mind. I find it perfectly believable that Stride's killer had concerns that he was seen by Schwarz, might well see other people turning up any second, and thus made a quick slash and dash move. I understand it's only 15 minutes between Schwarz' passing and the arrival of Diemschutz. Not sure if Stride showed signs of strangulation before slicing, as Nichols and Chapman may have indicated. That would be another element to consider in the vein of being rushed or interrupted on Berner Street.

Moving on, my main interest in posting here was on the topic of the graffiti on Goulston St. I understand that Sir Charles Warren (among others with Metropolitan) were anxious to erase this before daylight, to keep the general public from seeing it. What I've never seen or heard is a discussion of how it was written, apparently within a narrow 1 hour and fifteen minute window following the Eddowes murder, in such poor light as must have been present. So if the murder is responsible for the graffiti, it seems he must have had his own lamp or some source of light, or he might well struggle to write anything legible, spelling and grammatical concerns aside. With suggestions from some PCs at the scene that the chalk seemed faded rather than fresh, this suggests that it is not left by JTR, who may have been unaware of its presence when he dropped the apron. If he is carrying a piece of chalk, is he also carrying a source of light as well? Just food for thought, if anyone cares to consider the question.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,

There's no need to presuppose the interuption event has to occur between cutting the throat and stabbing. Ifsomething spooked him, he could still kill stride and flee.

Anyway, I agree there are aspects if stride's case that seen out if place, but there are also aspects that link her in. I'm of no opinion as to her inclusion.

- Jeff

What aspects do you think link her to the other murders?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff

There is a very minute time window between him cutting her throat and him being able to stab her several times in the abdomen as he had done with Eddowes.

There is no evidence that he was seen or disturbed. so interruption is conjecture, and is what some want to believe to prop up the old accpted theory of five and five only

But lets not keep trying to pin the tail on the donkey, several aspects of this murder point away from her killer being JTR, if that be the case who was her killer, someone from the club, her ex Michael Kidney or somebody she turned a trick with and it went wrong?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

There's no need to presuppose the interuption event has to occur between cutting the throat and stabbing. Ifsomething spooked him, he could still kill stride and flee.

Anyway, I agree there are aspects if stride's case that seen out if place, but there are also aspects that link her in. I'm of no opinion as to her inclusion.

- Jeff