The apron was dropped...

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael,

Excellent post #275.

Of course it's all bollocks.

It's what fuels the Ripper bandwagon and keeps Jack—one of the UK's most enduring and profitable exports—looming large.

Take no prisoners.

Regards.

Simon

I feel as if you and I are often seen as Devils Advocates here Simon, just providing alternatives to allow for more discussion. The reality of course is impatience with the nonsense that many hold dear about these cases, and your economic perspective is almost certainly a key driver in all this.

Jon, what you are holding onto is a presumption that the alley was empty, based on....yes, the uncorroborated accounts. When in fact the neighbors stated that often after meetings people would gather in that alleyway, smoking and discussing politics most likely, until long after 1am. On this night however, we have club affiliated witnesses saying no-one was there...even when 2 of them were there at the same times based on their own statements, and when 4 witnesses say they were by a dying woman. By the way, 4 independent witnesses giving almost identical times and details is corroboration defined. Claiming to see something, or nothing, with no other witness verifying your claim is unsubstantiated hearsay.

If you prefer to use witnesses from both categories, thats your call. But if you do then you will still be dealing with the issue of those 4 corroborated accounts for 12:40-12:45. Which directly refute the unsubstantiated ones. Surely even someone as argumentative as you would not favour unsubstantiated, singular claims over a group of witness statements that are in almost every detail, corroborative of each other?

Of course not.

Then its time to redefine the accepted timelines here. There was no Israel Schwartz sighting of Liz outside the gates at 12:45, he may have been leaving the club via the side door and seen her inside the gates with someone...I can see that as possible, but the 4 accounts in agreement say they were by Liz at that same time. People were sent for help that were not mentioned to the police....Issac K being sent by himself is 1 of them..he said he was alerted about 12:40...people were standing at the same place at the same time and didnt see each other...club witnesses....someone claimed to not know if he had to step over or around a dying woman to get to the side door...the club speaker...and someone claimed to have made the discovery at "precisely" 1am, when fanny Mortimer was standing at her door on the street and saw or heard nothing, and when 4 witnesses say they had been by the dying woman for about 15 minutes...the club steward.

Its blatantly obvious the club members lied, and its also blatantly obvious it was more than 1 "jew" trying to rewrite history.

[Fisherman]

Dr Phillips's estimates were way off target too...

That old canard again? Jon, we do not know that Phillipsīestmates were "way off target". He may instead have been - and in my view probably was - very much on target in the Chapman case.

Otherwise, yes, the methods of establishing the time of death were inexact, and the fact that Bond and Phillips disagreed very much over the TOD of Kelly goes to prove that point. However, it needs to be said that Kelly had been dead for many hours as the door was broken through, and any body warmth discernible by way of feeling with the hands would at that stage have been long gone - it is only there for some four hours or so. And that means that the two doctors relied on other factors in the Kelly case for making their calls! It was therefore a much harder task than Chapman was.

Very recently dead persons, like for example Stride , would have been infinitely easier to estimate from, even if the method as such had itīs problems.

[Fisherman]

a man riding a horse of course. either that or a threesome with a headless monkey

Of course!!! How could I have missed that - itīs so obvious!

The man on the horse, though, seems a bit far-fetched to me...

[Fisherman]

Thanks Fisherman - I was simply suggesting the plural of Jews makes more sense if the a small group of Jewish men disturbed the killer.

It does - until racism sets in and we extrapolate our discontent with one person to all persons of the same religion.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Michael,

Excellent post #275.

Of course it's all bollocks.

It's what fuels the Ripper bandwagon and keeps Jack—one of the UK's most enduring and profitable exports—looming large.

Take no prisoners.

Regards.

Simon

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jon,

So, move along. Nothing to see here.

Let the Ripper bandwagon roll along on its merry way.

Pathetic.

Simon

[etenguy]

True, but I thought we were using the evidence as has been given?
Which small group of Jews would you be talking about?, I don't recall any.

True again, it is supposition based on
1. It is unlikely that Diemshitz disturbed the killer - the murderer would have been seen or heard if it was.
2. Given the location of the murder, if the killer had been interrupted it would likely have been club members, either entering or leaving the club.

Of course, it is also only supposition that the murderer was interrupted at all, and indeed some discount Stride as a ripper victim. Regardless of the GSG, the mostly likely scenario is that if the murderer was spooked by anyone, it was club members entering or leaving the club.

[Wickerman]

Doctor Blackwell arrived in Dutfields Yard at 1.16 am.

He estimated that Stride had died “From twenty minutes to half an hour when I arrived."

This put her death somewhere between 12.46 and 12.56 am.

Doctor Blackwell also told the coroner—

"She would have bled to death comparatively slowly on account of vessels on one side only of the neck being cut and the artery not completely severed.”

This put her attack at an earlier time than 12.46 or 12.56 am.

How could Diemschitz have disturbed the killer at 1.00 am?

Yet the official version of events has Stride being attacked at the exact moment Eddowes left Bishopsgate police station.

He estimated that Stride had died “From twenty minutes to half an hour when I arrived."

That's the achilles heels Simon. When we build a theory on an estimate we can easily arrive at the wrong conclusion.
Dr Phillips's estimates were way off target too, it's just the state of medical knowledge at the time, nothing wrong with the doctors themselves.

[Wickerman]

The International Club was full of Jewes Jon, the attendees that night were mostly Jewish, all the witnesses from the club are Jewish..there are quite obviously multiple Jews at that scene...lets not try to disagree just for the jolly will you? He was saying Jews are evading blame, not a Jew. And again, the message is Anti-semitic Jon...so he blames with broad strokes.

Yes Michael, the club may have been full, but how many were out in the yard where he was between 12:45 and 1:00 am?
None!
So, no "Jews" to interrupt him.

[Wickerman]

On the contrary, if a small group of club members disturbed the killer, a small group of Jewish club members, the plural in the GSG makes even more sense.

True, but I thought we were using the evidence as has been given?
Which small group of Jews would you be talking about?, I don't recall any.

[Michael W Richards]

Doctor Blackwell arrived in Dutfields Yard at 1.16 am.

He estimated that Stride had died “From twenty minutes to half an hour when I arrived."

This put her death somewhere between 12.46 and 12.56 am.

Doctor Blackwell also told the coroner—

"She would have bled to death comparatively slowly on account of vessels on one side only of the neck being cut and the artery not completely severed.”

This put her attack at an earlier time than 12.46 or 12.56 am.

How could Diemschitz have disturbed the killer at 1.00 am?

Yet the official version of events has Stride being attacked at the exact moment Eddowes left Bishopsgate police station.

Hi Simon,

Ive been citing the known timeline here since I first posted back in 05. Its because it doesnt work, and "key" witnesses claim events that no-one corroborates...and 4 witnesses say they were by the dying woman at around 12:45...right around the earliest time estimate for the cut...that single cut...and at the same time some theatrical party claims on Sunday night that he saw her alive on the street being assaulted. Thats one of those uncorroborated stories of course. The reality is that Mr Diemshitz lied. Mrs D lied. Eagle Lied. Schwartz lied, Lave lied...not sure about Wess. Hey.....funny that the stories we can prove are unsubstantiated and/or obviously incorrect are on the International Club payroll. The very same club the woman is found murdered at. While 30 "Jews" were still there. Gee...I wonder if the club staff was trying to avert disaster and almost certain closure of their club and likely other affiliated ones. Hmm. I wonder if people would lie to protect their jobs, their income? Wouldnt Eagle know whether a body lay directly in his path to the side door...yet he "couldnt be sure". I wonder why Lave, who says he stayed at the gates until almost 12:40, saw no-one, not even Eagle entering the gates at around 12:40. Wonder where Israel, BSM and Pipeman..and LIZ... were when Eagle and Lave were there...seeing no-one....well, almost no-one, there could have been a body there right?

Its bollocks...all of it...poor Liz Stride got lumped in with this mess because she happened to be killed on a night when a mutilator also kills. And a husband, by the by. 3 slit throats...all in a row.

People obviously prefer ghouls to thugs in this mythological tale.

[etenguy]

I donīt think Jon is actually promoting Diemschitz as the Jew the killer referred to, etenguy. He only points out that out of Diemschitz, Schwartz and Lawende, Diemschitz is the only one the killer could have been said to have had a beef with. He MAY have interrupted the killer whereas the other two clearly did not.

Thanks Fisherman - I was simply suggesting the plural of Jews makes more sense if the a small group of Jewish men disturbed the killer.

[etenguy]

Thanks Etenguy, I should have been clearer.
However, if Diemschitz did not interrupt the killer, then there is no argument left to justify pinning the GSG on the killer.

On the contrary, if a small group of club members disturbed the killer, a small group of Jewish club members, the plural in the GSG makes even more sense.

[Michael W Richards]

Why do you apply a plural (Jews) to a singular event?

For instance, if he was interrupted by Diemschitz, it was only one Jew.
Or, if BS-man killed Stride and was interrupted by Schwartz, he was also only one Jew.

Yet, the graffiti clearly makes a point that Jews (plural) are to be blamed - which Jews is the killer talking about?

The International Club was full of Jewes Jon, the attendees that night were mostly Jewish, all the witnesses from the club are Jewish..there are quite obviously multiple Jews at that scene...lets not try to disagree just for the jolly will you? He was saying Jews are evading blame, not a Jew. And again, the message is Anti-semitic Jon...so he blames with broad strokes.

[Simon Wood]

Doctor Blackwell arrived in Dutfields Yard at 1.16 am.

He estimated that Stride had died “From twenty minutes to half an hour when I arrived."

This put her death somewhere between 12.46 and 12.56 am.

Doctor Blackwell also told the coroner—

"She would have bled to death comparatively slowly on account of vessels on one side only of the neck being cut and the artery not completely severed.”

This put her attack at an earlier time than 12.46 or 12.56 am.

How could Diemschitz have disturbed the killer at 1.00 am?

Yet the official version of events has Stride being attacked at the exact moment Eddowes left Bishopsgate police station.