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  • Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
    The only thing linking the GSG to the apron piece is proximity. Had the latter been dropped further along the road nobody would ever have given the GSG a second thought. That said, if Warren thought it relevant he should have preserved it or, at the very least, ensured that the content was agreed and accurately recorded.
    Yes, the only thing linking the GSG to the apron is proximity. And proximity alone is not enough to push the idea of a true link. Instead, that boils down to the message as such. Surely, it is not as if ANY message would have been more likely than not to have been written by the killer? If we try these five messages, we will find that they represent varying degrees of "linkability":

    1. Two whores tonight, and more will follow.

    2. Billy Swiggins for mayor!

    3. Clara, I will marry you! Your Ezekiel.

    4. Drive the chinese out of town!

    5. The Jews are the men who will not be blamed for nothing.

    It is not until we have a wording that can be linked to the series of murders in a clear fashioin that the GSG can be perceived as linked to the rag, other than by proximity. And by clear, I do not mean that it fits with any invention on behalf of the ones studying the case, like for example that the killer disliked Jews. No such sentiment can possibly be linked to the killer, for the simple reason that we do not even know who he was (well, I know, but ... ) and we have no other instance of a distaste for Jews recorded on the killers behalf.
    In the above five examples, example 1 is the only one that should link the GSG to the rag. In all the other cases, there MAY have been a connection (for example, Ezekiel could have been the killer, who had decided not to wed Clara until he had rid the streets of a few prostitutes), but as long as that connection is just as unlikely (or more) than it is likely, the GSG should not be regarded as being connected to the case.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
      I have never understood this supposed anger towards the Jews as the basis for writing the GSG. Assuming an interruption (s) as the cause.

      We have no way of knowing if Jack even saw Lawende looking at him and even if he did it did not stop him from killing Eddowes.

      As for Diemschutz and Schwartz, they were only guilty of driving a buggy and walking down the street respectively. Yes, they were both Jewish but I don't see how their being Jewish had any impact on their actions. It is not like their actions were connected to some sort of Jewish ritual. Now if Jack had been interrupted by say a Catholic procession honoring a particular saint then I see how a connection could be made. But to me, it seems a stretch to vent his anger towards Jews given the circumstances. Diemschutz and Schwartz were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. That had nothing to do with them being Jewish.

      c.d.
      I think the above shows that you have no ingrained anti-Semitic beliefs, and thats good. Not so with much of East London at that time though. There is no other night in the Unsolved Murder cases where jewish immigrants figure so prominently in the storylines, and there is little doubt that the GSG was interpreted as being anti-Semitic. I think that is particularly relevant when you look at the Mens Club on Berner, and the fact that they immediately sought to assign "blame" to the killer at large. Interesting that Liz's murder has very little similarity, if any, to Annies murder...yet their supposed assumption was it was the same man who killed Annie.

      I believe that the primary goal the senior members had when they became aware that a body was discovered is damage control.

      And I believe the GSG is about that very thing.
      Michael Richards

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

        Yes, the only thing linking the GSG to the apron is proximity. And proximity alone is not enough to push the idea of a true link. Instead, that boils down to the message as such. Surely, it is not as if ANY message would have been more likely than not to have been written by the killer? If we try these five messages, we will find that they represent varying degrees of "linkability":

        1. Two whores tonight, and more will follow.

        2. Billy Swiggins for mayor!

        3. Clara, I will marry you! Your Ezekiel.

        4. Drive the chinese out of town!

        5. The Jews are the men who will not be blamed for nothing.

        It is not until we have a wording that can be linked to the series of murders in a clear fashioin that the GSG can be perceived as linked to the rag, other than by proximity. And by clear, I do not mean that it fits with any invention on behalf of the ones studying the case, like for example that the killer disliked Jews. No such sentiment can possibly be linked to the killer, for the simple reason that we do not even know who he was (well, I know, but ... ) and we have no other instance of a distaste for Jews recorded on the killers behalf.
        In the above five examples, example 1 is the only one that should link the GSG to the rag. In all the other cases, there MAY have been a connection (for example, Ezekiel could have been the killer, who had decided not to wed Clara until he had rid the streets of a few prostitutes), but as long as that connection is just as unlikely (or more) than it is likely, the GSG should not be regarded as being connected to the case.
        hi fish and bridewell
        i disagree.its not just the proximity. also the fact that the ripper was interupted and knew he was seen by jews that night and the disparaging nature toward jews of the gsg indicates the gsg is linked to the case.
        "Is all that we see or seem
        but a dream within a dream?"

        -Edgar Allan Poe


        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

        -Frederick G. Abberline

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

          hi fish and bridewell
          i disagree.its not just the proximity. also the fact that the ripper was interupted and knew he was seen by jews that night and the disparaging nature toward jews of the gsg indicates the gsg is linked to the case.
          Abby!

          It is not a fact that the Ripper was interrupted. That is a theory to which many of us ascribe - without even knowing that Stride was killed by our man!

          Nor is it a fact that the killer knew that he had been seen by Jews on the night in question.

          The one fact there is, is that the GSG cannot be linked to the rag other than by skipping over how these things are not facts.

          Whether or not the character of the GSG is disparaging towards Jews is something that we cannot agree about either. Some think it is telling us about how Jews are quite able to hold their own, come what may.

          In essence, you personally believe the GSG is linked to the case. I personally think it is unlinked to the case, if I must choose. But I really must do no such thing. I can leave it lying if I choose to. As long as none of us start to claim things as facts or proven when they are not, it is just fine to disagree. The gist of such a disagreement is that it cannot be decided whether it is linked or not, and so it must be regarded as unlinked until otherwise proven. That is the nature of evidence, how it works. It does not mean that theories cannot involve a belief in a link, but any such theory leaves itself totally open to fair criticism. Conversely, any theory that claims it is a given that the GSG is NOT linked is equally open to fair criticism. Therefore, any theory that wants to be on the safe side needs to simply ignore the GSG and build on other matters.

          Which brings us full circle back to what I started out saying: It is a waste of time.
          Last edited by Fisherman; 08-24-2020, 12:36 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

            Abby!

            It is not a fact that the Ripper was interrupted. That is a theory to which many of us ascribe - without even knowing that Stride was killed by our man!

            Nor is it a fact that the killer knew that he had been seen by Jews on the night in question.

            The one fact there is, is that the GSG cannot be linked to the rag other than by skipping over how these things are not facts.

            Whether or not the character of the GSG is disparaging towards Jews is something that we cannot agree about either. Some think it is telling us about how Jews are quite able to hold their own, come what may.

            In essence, you personally believe the GSG is linked to the case. I personally think it is unlinked to the case, if I must choose. But I really must do no such thing. I can leave it lying if I choose to. As long as none of us start to claim things as facts or proven when they are not, it is just fine to disagree. The gist of such a disagreement is that it cannot be decided whether it is linked or not, and so it must be regarded as unlinked until otherwise proven. That is the nature of evidence, how it works. It does not mean that theories cannot involve a belief in a link, but any such theory leaves itself totally open to fair criticism. Conversely, any theory that claims it is a given that the GSG is NOT linked is equally open to fair criticism. Therefore, any theory that wants to be on the safe side needs to simply ignore the GSG and build on other matters.

            Which brings us full circle back to what I started out saying: It is a waste of time.
            well if you ever discovered some writings by lech in which he spells jews as Juwes then im pretty sure you wouldnt still think its a waste of time! ; )
            no worries fish-agree to disagree my friend. : )
            "Is all that we see or seem
            but a dream within a dream?"

            -Edgar Allan Poe


            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

            -Frederick G. Abberline

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
              If we are to agree that the actual killer is not likely to drop a major piece of evidence in his own doorway, then how is it that the police couldn't come to the same conclusion?
              If it is so obvious to us, shouldn't it be just as obvious to him, and to the police equally?
              Also, it's not like this was someone's doorway, it was an entrance to 12 dwellings.

              I do agree that the best fit for the evidence that has come down to us is, that the killer used the apron to carry away the organs. That (with Abby) he dropped them off with the knife, and returned to the street.
              Whether he intentionally chose that doorway, or he was being approached by a constable in the distance and ditched it randomly is debatable, but I don't accept he wrote the graffiti.

              The intent of the graffiti - that the Jews will not accept blame for anything, has no bearing on the supposition that Diemshutz interrupted the killer.
              Hi Jon,

              So in your opinion, the writing on the wall - where Eddowes's apron was dropped - was entirely unrelated to the Leather Apron business, and therefore just a funny little coincidence?

              Whoever authored the Dear Boss letter must have been truly amazed at how things turned out, within just days of sending it.

              Love,

              Caz
              X
              "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


              Comment


              • Originally posted by etenguy View Post

                I can quite imagine him allowing his frustation at being interrupted being directed at Diemschutz and the whole club - walking away blaming Jewish people for ruining his fun.
                Hi etenguy,

                We did have Broad Shoulders calling out "Lipski!", which could support your observation.

                Love,

                Caz
                X
                "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                Comment


                • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                  i guess the insult lipski shouted at schwartz had nothing with him being jewish either.
                  Hello Abby,

                  But if the B.S. man killed Stride (which I don't believe) Schwartz's appearance on the scene did nothing to prevent it. Schwartz did not try to interfere. Had he attempted to do so I would be more inclined to see anger directed at Jews as the impetus for the GSG.

                  c.d.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
                    The only thing linking the GSG to the apron piece is proximity. Had the latter been dropped further along the road nobody would ever have given the GSG a second thought. That said, if Warren thought it relevant he should have preserved it or, at the very least, ensured that the content was agreed and accurately recorded.
                    The problem is, it wasn't dropped further along the road, so the question is whether that proximity was more likely to have been by accident than design.

                    And the next question is how common were similar messages - in size, content and legibility - in the vicinity at the time? People often claim they would have been ten a penny, but nobody produces any evidence that they were. If they had been, the simple removal of the apron should have rendered the message commonplace and not worth causing a major fuss over.

                    The message referred specifically to Juwes and blame, and I've seen nothing to suggest similar messages were seen on a regular basis and routinely erased.

                    The apron was unique to the second murder that night.

                    So the latter was potentially dropped there by design.

                    I don't see how anyone could rule out a connection, or why they would want to do so.

                    Love,

                    Caz
                    X



                    "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                      Interesting that Liz's murder has very little similarity, if any, to Annies murder...yet their supposed assumption was it was the same man who killed Annie.

                      I believe that the primary goal the senior members had when they became aware that a body was discovered is damage control.

                      And I believe the GSG is about that very thing.
                      Hi Michael,

                      I think we have to give some credit to the people who actually lived through these events, to know just how rare such murders were, despite the poor reputation the area had for crime in general. Lone adult women were not routinely attacked and murdered by knife on the streets, by some unknown hand. Only a handful of cases each year in the whole of England should tell us why those club members were justified in fearing that 'another' woman had been murdered by the Whitechapel fiend, this time on their own premises. The whole Leather Apron business would have put them on high alert to the fact that many couldn't stomach the idea that the villain could be an Englishman, and who then would be the next Jew to be suspected? One of their members?

                      Love,

                      Caz
                      X
                      "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                      Comment


                      • Hello Caz,

                        From my personal perspective, if I wanted to vent anger and frustration at the Jews the message would have read something like those no good ****** Jews. As has been noted before, the message appears to us more in line with someone expressing frustration with a Jewish butcher putting his thumb on the scale.

                        Also, again from a personal perspective, if I took the risk of writing the GSG and it was erased I would be pretty pissed. I think my response would be to write a message on Kelly's wall in blood and think to myself let them try to erase that.

                        c.d.

                        Comment


                        • If the link to placing the apron piece in the doorway of Wentworth Dwellings is that the killer was interrupted by someone Jewish earlier in the evening, then it must stand that they were familiar with Wentworth Dwellings being a predominantly Jewish occupied residence.

                          That requires a plan of deposit and escape after chancing upon a victim with an apron to cut a piece from during a killing that itself had its own route of escape after a previously successful escape from another murder site when interrupted. This is not someone who panics. This is someone who is capable of remaining perfectly calm even in extreme circumstances, enabling them to hide in plain sight. Which is obvious given how the killer was able to carry out the killings and subsequent mutilations in an such a swift way and not be caught.

                          If the graffiti was meant to be in conjunction with the apron piece to link both the murders of Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes - as in to have been done by the same Jewish hand - then as an act to stir up tensions with the Jewish community it didn't really materialise. The graffiti on its own or the apron piece on its own also don't stir any particular tensions beyond a few days. Most of the tension is within the police themselves over procedure and gathering/keeping evidence.

                          Even if you take Elizabeth Stride out of the equation, the apron piece being placed at Wentworth Dwellings is still an attempt to link someone Jewish to the murder of Catherine Eddowes regardless of any graffiti. The killer's motive in that instance appears to be to either pin the murders on the Jewish community or stir something up against the Jewish community particularly in that area.

                          Comment


                          • Regardless of our interpretation of the GSG it doesn't tell us whether the author was a Jew or Gentile. Could have been a red herring.

                            c.d.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                              well if you ever discovered some writings by lech in which he spells jews as Juwes then im pretty sure you wouldnt still think its a waste of time! ; )
                              no worries fish-agree to disagree my friend. : )
                              If I ever find a letter where Lechmere writes about "Juwes", then yes, at such a stage I would find it interesting. And I would likely change my mind about the GSG and accept it as a genuine clue.

                              That is how things work. When we find evidence that goes against our beliefs, we need to change those beliefs.

                              But up until that happens, I will remain of the meaning that the GSG is a waste of time.

                              And of course we can agree to disagree, Abby, that īs just fine by me!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by caz View Post

                                Hi Jon,

                                So in your opinion, the writing on the wall - where Eddowes's apron was dropped - was entirely unrelated to the Leather Apron business, and therefore just a funny little coincidence?
                                Hi Caz.

                                It could be argued that it only becomes a coincidence if the message directly refers to the murders.
                                If it refers to something else (a general comment about Jews), as I see it, then there is no coincidence.

                                However, that aside, it's a coincidence that some graffiti, complaining about Jews, was found written in a Jewish entryway close to where the rag was found.

                                We have posted a few old photo's with graffiti in the background, the problem is no-one in the late 19th century appears to have made a career out of photographing graffiti in the streets.
                                Are we to suppose graffiti is a modern phenomena?, the few photo's we have tend to suggest otherwise.
                                Alternately, anti-semitic graffiti may have been more common in the entry of Jewish tenements?

                                Whoever authored the Dear Boss letter must have been truly amazed at how things turned out, within just days of sending it.
                                Or, the Ripper was the journalist?
                                Any takers?




                                Regards, Jon S.

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