The gas lamp in Miller's Court

[Wickerman]

Ok Chris, ..howzabout...

- Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, who has been deserted by her husband, knew Kelly well, she told a Star reporter, "She lived in No. 13 room, and mine is No. 20, which is almost over hers.".
Star, 10 Nov.

(my emphasis)

Ambiguous?

A reporter, even if prone to embellishment, is more inclined to place his source as near as possible to the deceased. He might substitute a "directly" for an "almost", but he would never write "almost" if she said "directly", don't you think?

Best Wishes, Jon S.

[Bridewell]

A reporter, even if prone to embellishment, is more inclined to place his source as near as possible to the deceased. He might substitute a "directly" for an "almost", but he would never write "almost" if she said "directly", don't you think?

Makes sense to me Jon.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Michael W Richards]

The only real obstacle to agreement on where exactly Elizabeths room was, to satisfy both parties...one that assumes she had a window facing Dorset and was "over the shed", and one that has a window on the courtyard and is "almost" directly above Mary Kellys,......can be resolved by the following...the window in the archway.

If Eliabeth's rear corner, that is her left back corner if facing her room from Dorset Street, had a small portion of the archway included in it as a nook or small storage area over the tunnel, then that window...which is clearly there in many photos and most of the illustrations, could have been what allowed her to hear noise from the courtyard.

It would also make her room almost over Marys, at least abutting it to some extent. On the other side of that rear wall was likely the staircase up.

Cheers

[Wickerman]

The only real obstacle to agreement on where exactly Elizabeths room was, to satisfy both parties...one that assumes she had a window facing Dorset and was "over the shed", and one that has a window on the courtyard and is "almost" directly above Mary Kellys,......can be resolved by the following...the window in the archway.

Very diplomatic Michael.
You should be an arbitrator between the NHL & the players

It really isn't necessary to negotiate which room Prater lived in. We are not assuming she lived "almost" over No. 13, she is deemed to have actually said that.
However, Chris (who unfortunately has lost interest?) is crediting Prater with saying that her room was "directly above that of the deceased".
For the life of me I cannot find Prater saying that anywhere. The solution may be that Chris has a source that I have been unable to locate.

Therefore, as it stands today, Prater only claimed to live "almost" over Kelly, not "directly" over Kelly - and that is a significant difference.
And, it means there is no need to find any middle ground - Prater did not claim to live "directly" over Kelly. However, she did claim to live over the shed.

Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

Not being funny, (and I know it's not original), but what if Prater's room wasn't actually on the first floor (american second floor) but actually on the second floor (american third foor)?

I, personally, believe some of Prater's statements regarding her proximity to MJK's room relate to her experiences climbing the stairs (which probably flank onto the partition wall in #13...viz she can see light through the gaps in the partitions etc on her left as she climbs the stairs)....but there's nothing to say whether or not she had another floor to climb after that...the famous Dorset Street photos show there were three floors in all...and I have this odd conviction that if there had been sounds from below she'd have heard them (interestingly via a stairwell or otherwise?)....

So what's to say the second floor (American third) didn't run front to back of the building...this would make sense of damn nearly all the statements...she lived almost over Kelly (because she was separated by a floor), but also directly (geographically) over Kelly...she could see Kelly's light as she climbed the stairs...she could see either lodging house light, front or back, ....she could hear "oh murder" as if it came from the court...etc etc...

Does this make sense (after several pints on a Friday night) ?

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

Dave.
As Kelly is paying 4/- for a single room, 15' x 12' (arguably), what would an entire floor rent for?

A question of economics comes to mind, for instance, first - why would McCarthy rent an entire floor to one woman who had no visible means of support?

Second, why would a single woman, with cat, pay the rent for an entire floor?

Third, there were six upstairs rooms to account for, although this sketch is No. 27, the construction is the same.



2 windows on the 1st floor (2 rooms).
2 windows on the 2nd floor (2 rooms)
1 window in the attic (1 room front, 1 room rear)
------
6 rooms

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Alternately Dave, the attic may have been one room front to rear and this single window (in pic below) above that lean-too roof may also be another room by itself.
It is a small window, more likely I think this is a landing window for the staircase running up the back of the house.


Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Jon,

Sorry can't view the contents of your link as I'm not a Forums member...

Nonetheless, the two buildings clearly are not and cannot possibly be mirror images of one another anyway, regardless even of whether they started out that way...vide Kelly's room, the shed and McCarthy's shop...

Since you clearly have full details, how large exactly is the second floor of Kelly's building? Also is there an attic space which might arguably be let to Prater?

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Sorry can't view the contents of your link as I'm not a Forums member...

Nonetheless, the two buildings clearly are not and cannot possibly be mirror images of one another anyway, regardless even of whether they started out that way...vide Kelly's room, the shed and McCarthy's shop...

Since you clearly have full details, how large exactly is the second floor of Kelly's building? Also is there an attic space which might arguably be let to Prater?

All the best

Dave

Hi Dave.
Here is a front view of No.27 & 26.

As you can see, except for the passage they are essentially mirror images of each other. There is another sketch which shows a single/central attic window so the attic was likely one room the full width of the house.

Here's the Goads Plan of the same pair of houses.

As you can see the property line division (upside down 'T') is to the right of the passage suggesting the passage is part of No.27.
Kellys room at the back of No.26 appears to be wider than it is deep.

Two press articles give estimates of the room size, either 12'x12' or 15'x12'.
I don't know what you think but a 12' wide house seems a little narrow to me.
Plus, if the back room is truly wider than it is deep then 15' wide by 12' deep appears to be consistent with the Goads Plan, but we cannot swear to it.

Also, in 1892 a writer for a Toronto newspaper, Kath Watkins, visited Millers Court and met Mrs Prater, who took her down to Kelly's room..
(Quote)
Prater then took Watkins downstairs to the room where Kelly had died - "a dark, narrow room with no communication with the upstairs part of the tenement."

Watkins had obviously been in Praters room upstairs yet she describes Kelly's room as narrow, consistent with us accepting the 15'x12' dimension as opposed to being square (12'x12').

The issue of there being seven rooms upstairs intrigues me.
If, as you suggested, Prater might have occupied a room that ran front to back of the house, how would anyone gain access to the next floor above?
She would have to occupy the attic would she?
Which creates more problems in interpreting the press quotes of where she lived.

If the two windows over the 'shed' were actually one room (1st flr), likewise the pair above (2nd flr) then (I'm thinking of 29 Hanbury St. as an example), then this just adds more confusion to finding seven upstairs rooms in this house.

Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Jon

The space above the passageway presumably belonged to one house or the other...and the Goad map references, (3 and 3 1/2 suggest that there may be a difference in the number of storeys...

This leads me even more to believe the two houses may have started out with some internal differences...albeit perhaps of dimensions if not shape...

The conversion of one front room to a shop and the other to a "shed" may have led to more...for example we're pretty sure the stairs to the upper floors of Number 26 aren't in their original position, (otherwise the inhabitants would've had to go outdoors to go up to bed when the houses were first built!)...and was Mary's room a tacked-on afterthought, or was it a back parlour or scullery from new?

Let's be honest, these were old houses and in the conversion of Number 26 to multiple dwellings and 27 to a shop, they were butchered around to such an extent, that I'd suggest it was most unlikely their layouts remained alike, even if they had started out that way.

And let's be honest, while we may surmise from the numbering that there were seven rooms upstairs in Number 26 we don't know that for sure...unless someone comes up with a detailed plan from somewhere!

To be honest, and please don't take this the wrong way, I did initially think from your confident air that you were nursing some more positive knowledge, but am vastly reassured to discover that you're just guessing, the same as the rest of us!

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon

The space above the passageway presumably belonged to one house or the other...and the Goad map references, (3 and 3 1/2 suggest that there may be a difference in the number of storeys...

Yes it does, an extra half storey suggest an attic room at the top of No.27, but this sketch actually shows the extra half-storey on top of No.26.



But then the Goads is a snapshot in time, the sketch is supposed to be contemporary. There are though, several sketches of this rear view and sadly they don't all agree.

The conversion of one front room to a shop and the other to a "shed" may have led to more...for example we're pretty sure the stairs to the upper floors of Number 26 aren't in their original position, (otherwise the inhabitants would've had to go outdoors to go up to bed when the houses were first built!)

What it suggests Dave is that a later door was cut through the house wall to the passage, not that anyone would move a three-storey staircase
Typically, stairs surface between the main joists in a terrace house. The preference is not to cut a joist, thereby weaken the structure, just to install a staircase. Rather than move the stairs it would be easier to cut a new doorway in the house wall.
Most likely the stairs were originally accessed via that front door facing Dorset St.

...and was Mary's room a tacked-on afterthought, or was it a back parlour or scullery from new?

It was described in the press as "the back parlour" to No.26.

Let's be honest, these were old houses and in the conversion of Number 26 to multiple dwellings and 27 to a shop, they were butchered around to such an extent, that I'd suggest it was most unlikely their layouts remained alike, even if they had started out that way.

Because No.26 was rented out as a lodging-house it is very possible the rooms were smaller than would normally have been the case. Extra partitions erected?

And let's be honest, while we may surmise from the numbering that there were seven rooms upstairs in Number 26 we don't know that for sure...

We're not surmising, be it right or wrong this came from the press at the time. Just like the room dimensions, we can only work with what they gave us, was it correct or not, we cannot tell. However, with our insufficient knowledge we cannot say that they were wrong.

unless someone comes up with a detailed plan from somewhere!

Any detailed plan will only reflect how it was originally built, not how it looked in 1888.

To be honest, and please don't take this the wrong way, I did initially think from your confident air that you were nursing some more positive knowledge,

Ahh, assuming a little too much.

but am vastly reassured to discover that you're just guessing, the same as the rest of us!

You must have missed the point of these discussions, to pursue opinions and possibilities in the absence of facts. I'm sharing with you a few tid-bits of information we possess due to the fact that some of your guesswork did not appear to include these details.
This would normally be viewed as helping to clarify the discussion

Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Jon

Because No.26 was rented out as a lodging-house it is very possible the rooms were smaller than would normally have been the case. Extra partitions erected?

Yes I think this is quite likely...in which case it might even be possible to get three small rooms out of a floor...two with a front window, one with a window overlooking the court?

Typically, stairs surface between the main joists in a terrace house. The preference is not to cut a joist, thereby weaken the structure, just to install a staircase. Rather than move the stairs it would be easier to cut a new doorway in the house wall.

You may well be right Jon...in fact you probably are...

You must have missed the point of these discussions, to pursue opinions and possibilities in the absence of facts. I'm sharing with you a few tid-bits of information we possess

Ah so you mean educated guesswork!

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon
Yes I think this is quite likely...in which case it might even be possible to get three small rooms out of a floor...two with a front window, one with a window overlooking the court?

Ah, ...but the first floor does not have a room at the back, neither does the second floor. - Kelly's lean-too structure is built on behind.
There is a single window above her roof which 'could' be a room but if so, where are those stairs?
Mrs Hardiman, at 29 Hanbury St. occupied the first floor front room, it had two windows. Taking that tenancy as a guide we should accept Prater also having those two first floor windows (above the shed?).

I'm not comfortable suggesting that McCarthy divided those front rooms into two, one room per window, but how else can we get seven rooms upstairs?

You may well be right Jon...in fact you probably are...

Also, the joists run perpendicular to the line of the roof. The apex of the roof runs parallel to the street so, the main joists must run front to back, then the stairs 'should' enter the upper floors in the same direction (as the joists).

It has been suggested that the stairs run across the width of the house, behind Kelly's partition, but if so they should turn at 90 deg to surface between the joists. I think its more likely the stairs run straight up on the other side of the 'passage' wall, rather than across the back of Kelly's partition.

Ah so you mean educated guesswork!

Yes, lets not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear
Educated by the contemporary press no less, we can only play the hand we've been dealt.

Costermonger's barrows can be huge, even though they come in different widths (per Phil. W), they are quite long.
The front door to No.26 might be a dummy, the whole front room being partitioned off from the house, lending credence to the need for a side entrance via the passage. There seems to have been a huge section of wooden paneling installed across the front of No.26, it could have been referred to as a gate?

Because Kelly's room + the one above appears to be an addition, that means behind that first floor front room(s) is only a staircase?
Likewise then the same rule applies for the 2nd floor. The third floor might be different, we can see one single window at the back above Kelly's roof. But, if it is a rear room, how does anyone get up to the attic room(s)? Where are the stairs?

All this is aside to the location of the gas lamp referred to by Mrs Prater.
There were gas lamps hanging outside the lodging-house, almost over the passage, or near to it, that Prater would have seen the glow from when they were lit.
And she says that after 4:00 am the lodging-house lamp was out.
Not Crossingham's lamp, not the lamp outside Kelly's door behind the lodging-house, but,....the lamp hanging outside in Dorset St. just a few feet from Prater's window, pictured here...(upper left).


Regards, Jon S.

[Stephen Thomas]

If the two windows over the 'shed' were actually one room (1st flr), likewise the pair above (2nd flr) then (I'm thinking of 29 Hanbury St. as an example), then this just adds more confusion to finding seven upstairs rooms in this house.

Hi Jon

Not really. We do know that there were seven rooms on the upper floors of #26 (from some official report or newspaper article, I don't remember which) and this is quite logical and inevitable given what we know of this type of house. The rooms at the front of the house all had two windows (including the attic) so that is 3 rooms. Each of these rooms had behind them another room and the stairwell so that is now 6 rooms. The 7th room is the one above Kelly which is in the back extension ie not in the main body of #26. It seems that the numbering of the rooms after #13 began at the top of the house with 14 and 15 being the two attic rooms, 16 and 17 on the floor below and 18, 19 and 20 on the floor above Kelly with #20 being at the front of the house, #19 being the room above Kelly and #18 being a storeroom and corridor in between the two.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Jon

Also, the joists run perpendicular to the line of the roof. The apex of the roof runs parallel to the street so, the main joists must run front to back, then the stairs 'should' enter the upper floors in the same direction (as the joists).

This may not necessarily be the case Jon...it may be in North America, but not always in the UK... In fact I understand that older terraced houses had joists running parallel to the street, but this was later regarded as bad practice and abandoned... try googling "Directions of Joists" and see what "interesting" places it leads you to!

It has been suggested that the stairs run across the width of the house, behind Kelly's partition, but if so they should turn at 90 deg to surface between the joists. I think its more likely the stairs run straight up on the other side of the 'passage' wall, rather than across the back of Kelly's partition.

Therefore, this, equally, may not necessarily be the case...

All the best

Dave