Evidence left behind

[Fisherman]

To me, the main points of interest are that the killer severed the colon in TWO places, implying a wish to extract that part of it, and subsequently stretched it out and placed it neatly alongside and parallel to Eddowes´ body - intentionally, as per Brown.

I think we may make a mistake if we "grade" the body parts and prioritize some over the others, resulting in us opting for a view that the taking out of the colon section must have been led on by a practical wish to get at the kidney.

What if the colon section was taken out because the killer wanted to take out a section of the colon? The attention given to it afterwards goes some little way to strengthen that argument. In Kellys case, we have numerous organs placed beside her in the bed, so why not cut a colon part out and place it beside Eddowes?

[Abby Normal]

To me, the main points of interest are that the killer severed the colon in TWO places, implying a wish to extract that part of it, and subsequently stretched it out and placed it neatly alongside and parallel to Eddowes´ body - intentionally, as per Brown.

I think we may make a mistake if we "grade" the body parts and prioritize some over the others, resulting in us opting for a view that the taking out of the colon section must have been led on by a practical wish to get at the kidney.

What if the colon section was taken out because the killer wanted to take out a section of the colon? The attention given to it afterwards goes some little way to strengthen that argument. In Kellys case, we have numerous organs placed beside her in the bed, so why not cut a colon part out and place it beside Eddowes?

yup. the ripper was also about staging a scene ie displaying victims. in odd and shocking fashion. sound familiar?

[Fisherman]

yup. the ripper was also about staging a scene ie displaying victims. in odd and shocking fashion. sound familiar?

Very much so, yes. I believe the key to understanding what made the killer tick lies hidden in these odd and shocking inclusions.

[DJA]

The section cut from Eddowes' colon wad said to be about two feet long, which is a little less than half (on average). So presumably consisted of all the descending colon and around half the transverse colon. So, as Dave says, it might well have been removed to provide easier access to the kidney. Alternatively, one or both cuts may have simply been collateral damage from the central cuts to the abdomen, and the colon removed by the killer because it was leaking. Most likely the first, though.

We don't know the location of the cut to Chapman's colon, except that Dr Phillips thought it was caused when extracting her uterus. It's a possibility the killer was in the process of removing it to go after a kidney when something or someone caused him to call it a night and leave with what he had.

The section of colon was ~ 12",so given her height, part of the transverse colon was part of it. Not much,perhaps a couple of inches.

[DJA]

I think it is a reach to suggest that the served section of the descending colon blocks access to the kidney. IMO posters are trying too hard to make random mutilations sound surgical.

When an eminent senior surgeon and immune system researcher like Dr Wynne Weston-Davies (Prosector on Casebook) tells us that the descending colon was removed to access the left kidney,I take notice.

Ditto,his explanation of the diversion around Eddowes' belly button.

[DJA]

yup. the ripper was also about staging a scene ie displaying victims. in odd and shocking fashion. sound familiar?

Alice Cooper?

[Joshua Rogan]

The section of colon was ~ 12",so given her height, part of the transverse colon was part of it. Not much,perhaps a couple of inches.

Didn't Dr Brown say that about two feet of the colon was cut away.?

[DJA]

Not that I am aware of.

Measured the drawing of Eddowes at Mitre Square.
Colon beside her was ~ 20 % of her height. She was 5'.

[Joshua Rogan]

He did - Daily News (and others) 5 Oct;

"A piece of the intestines about two feet long was detached and placed between the left arm and the body, apparently by design"

[DJA]

Yeah,and Stride was found with "sweetmeats and grapes in either hand".

[Michael W Richards]

Eddowes murder is the key, to solving what happened to the organs, and who, and where they were removed.

Prove that the killer of Eddowes did not have the time, the knowledge, or the expertise to remove a uterus and a kidney in almost total darkness and it proves he did not remove the organs from Chapman. Kelly is a different kettle of fish because no organs were taken, when her killer had the chance to take away many body parts, but took none.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I see your angle, but Mary did lose her heart. according to Bond. And all you have to do is prove that Kate was killed or being killed when Lawende saw the couple, and you have enough time for the extractions in her case. There was time to do all the extractions at the murder scenes if that supposition is correct. In fact its still possible if he did see Kate, just less likely due to the clock, in my own opinion.

Im well aware you differ on that point, but all cards on the table, the opinion these extractions took place on the murder spot is backed by contemporray medical and investigative officers, as well as the vast majority of modern students. I realize that numbers dont make it true, as I pointed out to Fisherman in another post, but the opinions of the medical personelle compel one to take that as a foundation principle in Jacks murders.

Now....if people could only open their eyes and see how many Jack really did murder, we might well have 2 cases within just the Canonical Group that show 1 or 2 different men doing exactly the same thing.

[Michael W Richards]

He did - Daily News (and others) 5 Oct;

"A piece of the intestines about two feet long was detached and placed between the left arm and the body, apparently by design"

That may be why the apron scetion was needed, he exposed fecal matter when he did that. The apron section might have served as hanky and carrying case actually. It is however a fact, dont be disuaded by those who it seems are more GULLible when it comes to solving these matters practically.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hmmmmmmmm

I see your angle, but Mary did lose her heart. according to Bond.

Bonds statement is ambiguous. Insp Reid states no organs were taken !!!

And all you have to do is prove that Kate was killed or being killed when Lawende saw the couple, and you have enough time for the extractions in her case. There was time to do all the extractions at the murder scenes if that supposition is correct. In fact its still possible if he did see Kate, just less likely due to the clock, in my own opinion.

i agree that timings in the Eddowes murder are so important, and it is so easy to suggest that the clocks were wrong, and even if that were the case you still have to look at how long it would have taken to walk down the passage, to carry out the murder, and the mutilations, and to rifle her pockets and then remove these organs, and cut the apron piece !!!!!!!

As I stated previous it would have taken a medical expert at least 5 minutes to effect the removals alone without all the other aspects of the murder. Arriving at the murder scene at 1.37am and adding 5 mins to that makes it 1.42am, then add to that all the other aspects, the time isnt there to do all that he is supposed to have done. When Harvey comes down the passage at 1.41/42 and no doubt disturbs him.

If the couple didnt enter the passage until 1.37 then it makes it even more impossible time wise

Im well aware you differ on that point, but all cards on the table, the opinion these extractions took place on the murder spot is backed by contemporray medical and investigative officers, as well as the vast majority of modern students. I realize that numbers dont make it true, as I pointed out to Fisherman in another post, but the opinions of the medical personelle compel one to take that as a foundation principle in Jacks murders.

I am afraid to say that medical experts do not agree, and if there was a lone killer why do we not see attempts made to remove organs from all the other victims ?

[Trevor Marriott]

That may be why the apron scetion was needed, he exposed fecal matter when he did that. The apron section might have served as hanky and carrying case actually. It is however a fact, dont be disuaded by those who it seems are more GULLible when it comes to solving these matters practically.

Did he have cats eyes to see in the dark ? would he have been able to tell the difference between blood and fecal matter in the dark?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[JeffHamm]

Hi,

I don't think Bond's statement that the heart was missing in the Kelly's case can be said to be ambiguous, given there's no other interpretation. The heat was missing. It wasn't just "missing from it's body location", as that would apply to most of Kelly's organs. If it had just been removed but was located at the crime scene, like her liver for example, then it would not have been described as missing, and it's location at the crime scene would have been detailed; as per the other organs.

And that means, organs were taken from Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly. Nichols, no, but that's the first of the C5, and there's a good possibility that JtR fled due to Cross/Lechmere's approach, or that because she was early in the series he hadn't started on the idea of taking organs and that was something he fantasized about after that murder, so on the next opportunity (Chapman), he did just that. Stride, either wasn't a JtR victim (so no issue in that case), or he was interrupted there too (the most common explanation for those who include her). So basically, that means organs were taken in every case where it was possible, starting from the first case when an organ was taken.

And modern medical opinion as to the time required for Eddowes has varried from 2 minutes (the shortest I've seen) to 5 or more (at the longer end). Levy's estimated time of passing the couple is anything from 1:33-1:34, and Lawende puts it at 1:35. PC Harvey's patrol of Church Passage is around 1:41-1:42, giving a window of anywhere from 6-9 minutes, all of which are greater than the 5 minutes (and that's the long end of what's been suggested to be required).

Given that the walk from where the couple were spotted to the crime scene would take well under a minute at a normal walking pace, that still makes the shortest time window long enough to fit the longest crime time estimate. So even if the couple were Eddowes and JtR, there's enough time. And if the couple wasn't JtR and Eddowes, then that just gives more time as they could have arrived at the crime scene while the couple were still standing at the end of Church Passage.

The Eddowes crime is the one we have the most testimony about times, and narrows the events to a small window of opportunity. But that window, as stated, seems just large enough for the events to have happened and for Eddowes' killer to have escaped, which is, after all, what he did.

- Jeff