Evidence left behind

[Trevor Marriott]

That's how I see it Dave

A butcher, a surgeon or a soldier.



The Baron

or a sailor !!!!

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi JR

The City Police did look for out for blood stains.
They thought they had found some bloody fingerprints on the window sill of a shop in Mitre Street, which were closely examined, but turned out to be candle wax.

Thanks Jon. I'm not sure it was the police that found those stains, although I'm sure they searched the area the night of the murder. If I recall, the wax stains didn't appear until a day or so afterwards. And, from the Times 2 Oct, not during the night;

"Police-sergeant Dudman had his attention drawn yesterday afternoon to No. 36, Mike-Street [Mitre-street], a house a short distance from where the second murder was committed, and there he found what appeared to be bloodstains upon the doorway and underneath the window, as if a person had wiped his fingers on the window ledge and drawn a bloodstained knife down part of the doorway. Mr. Hurtig, who lives on the premises, said he had only just before noticed the stains. Almost immediately afterwards the same police officer had his attention drawn to similar marks on the plate-glass window of a shop at the corner of Mitre-square; but the occupier ridiculed the idea that they could have anything to do with the murders, as the windows were covered at night by shutters."

[The Baron]

or a sailor !!!!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

A sailor would be better than a barrister.



The Baron

[Jon Guy]

Thanks Jon. I'm not sure it was the police that found those stains, although I'm sure they searched the area the night of the murder. If I recall, the wax stains didn't appear until a day or so afterwards. And, from the Times 2 Oct, not during the night;

"Police-sergeant Dudman had his attention drawn yesterday afternoon to No. 36, Mike-Street [Mitre-street], a house a short distance from where the second murder was committed, and there he found what appeared to be bloodstains upon the doorway and underneath the window, as if a person had wiped his fingers on the window ledge and drawn a bloodstained knife down part of the doorway. Mr. Hurtig, who lives on the premises, said he had only just before noticed the stains. Almost immediately afterwards the same police officer had his attention drawn to similar marks on the plate-glass window of a shop at the corner of Mitre-square; but the occupier ridiculed the idea that they could have anything to do with the murders, as the windows were covered at night by shutters."

Thanks JR, that`s it.
But my point being, that the police if presented with blood stains would make a note of them

Same with Bucks Row, where the area was searched for blood stains

[Abby Normal]

the ripper was a very organized killer. he used a ruse to get victims where he wanted them, always got away in the nick of time and the only clue he left behind was intentional.

[Michael W Richards]

As far as what he might have left behind, there are reports that suggest a knife was among the entrails on Marys night table, there is also the clay pipe that was broken. I was always interested by the fact that no garrotes or ligatures were ever found on the women, makes me wonder if he re-used one or if he choked most of them by hand.

[DJA]

Abberline - There was a man's clay pipe in the room, and Barnett informed me that he smoked it.

[APerno]

the ripper was a very organized killer. he used a ruse to get victims where he wanted them, always got away in the nick of time and the only clue he left behind was intentional.

'nick of time' does not suggest well organized -- how can we know if he used a ruse to lure his victims? -- Polly and Annie were in places their profession takes them, Catherine may have been just walking through the square, Martha was asleep (passed out) and MJK had to admit strangers to her room if she was ever to catch up to her rent. To get these women to the wrong place I just don't see a ruse even being necessary.

As far as organization goes, all I see so far is that he could avoid the blood well enough to make his escape unnoticed, but when we talk about his ability to do so much in so little time (in almost dark) we are likely denoting the skill of a butcher or surgeon, but that does not mean his attacks were well thought out, only that he could wheel a knife. A butcher or doctor can as likely just jump from the shadows as would any disorganized opportunist marauder.

[Abby Normal]

'nick of time' does not suggest well organized -- how can we know if he used a ruse to lure his victims? -- Polly and Annie were in places their profession takes them, Catherine may have been just walking through the square, Martha was asleep (passed out) and MJK had to admit strangers to her room if she was ever to catch up to her rent. To get these women to the wrong place I just don't see a ruse even being necessary.

As far as organization goes, all I see so far is that he could avoid the blood well enough to make his escape unnoticed, but when we talk about his ability to do so much in so little time (in almost dark) we are likely denoting the skill of a butcher or surgeon, but that does not mean his attacks were well thought out, only that he could wheel a knife. A butcher or doctor can as likely just jump from the shadows as would any disorganized opportunist marauder.

Hi AP
with all due respect-"jump from the shadows"?!? cmon. Of course a ruse was used. multiple witnesses saw the ripper chatting up the victims before they were murdered. they were prostitutes actively soliciting and or out on the town having fun. he let them lead him to a safe spot for business or simply to hook up. I concede he may have come across tabram when she was dozing.

and re Kelly-she either led him to her room under the ruse of business or hook up, or he knew she was single (and perhaps also the hand through the window trick to unlock her door) which would indicate stalking behavior. and either of these scenarios is indicative of an organized killer.

and besides, no disorganized killer could have pulled off the double event and GSG/apron.

[pwilliamgrimm]

It is documented in the biography of Willy Clarkson that the culprit left behind the Berner Street wig at the Elizabeth Stride crime scene. As shown in this documentary.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_2m...ature=youtu.be

[APerno]

Hi AP
with all due respect-"jump from the shadows"?!? cmon. Of course a ruse was used. multiple witnesses saw the ripper chatting up the victims before they were murdered. they were prostitutes actively soliciting and or out on the town having fun. he let them lead him to a safe spot for business or simply to hook up. I concede he may have come across tabram when she was dozing.

and re Kelly-she either led him to her room under the ruse of business or hook up, or he knew she was single (and perhaps also the hand through the window trick to unlock her door) which would indicate stalking behavior. and either of these scenarios is indicative of an organized killer.

and besides, no disorganized killer could have pulled off the double event and GSG/apron.

OK - thanks for the reply

Re Polly. I do believe that he did just step out of the London Fog (coal dust) and she had no choice but to walk up to him, and into his strangling hands. Same is probably true of Catherine. Annie was chatting to someone, but taking a whore into a backyard is not a ruse, she likely led him there.

Kelly is no doubt an enigma (in many ways, and again here) some elements do suggest a planned attack, but again she could have led him home as nothing more than one more trick to turn. Again he need not have (he could have had) any deliberate plan in mind to get inside that room; had Mary Kelly led him to an alleyway she would have likely died there. (He was probably overjoyed when he realized he would be operating indoors.)

Warning conjecture: Re the locked door. It well could be that Mary used the 'broken window reach' to lock the door when she left earlier that evening and when returning with the Ripper, used the same manner to unlock the door in front of him, thus teaching him how to re-secure the door without him having to previously stalk her. He could have met her that night and learned the simple trick.

I don't agree with the double event; I blame Coroner Baxter for forcing Stride's murder into the Ripper investigation and souring any chance of the police properly investigating Liz's murder. Baxter's mommy and daddy were theater people but they forced their little darling into medicine; this was his time to wow an audience and he couldn't let it go. He couldn't bare the thought that his murder (Stride's) would draw no crowds. It was a rush to judgment on his part driven by a desire to stay publicly relevant.

How short was Kate Eddowes inquest? How many days did Baxter prolong the Stride (and earlier inquests)? Compare the two. Baxter became seduced by the limelight and went far beyond his charge.

I believe people like the 'double event' for two reasons: one it makes the Ripper almost supernatural; two, Baxter held so many unnecessary days of testimony and filled the newspapers with ink, that Ripper historians just can't bare the thought of just trowing all that information out, especially when compared to the dearth of information available regarding Eddowes.

Take out Stride's murder and we are left with one very weak eye witness for Annie, one very suspect eye witness for Mary, and the back of a head for Eddowes. But include Stride and we not only have eye witnesses (plural) we even have a conversation. People just don't want to let all that go.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Hi all,
Just wanted to make a quick post on the subject of clues/evidence and the big what if of how would modern forensics have made a difference if it was available at the time.
Then as now, what would we really expect a killer to leave at a crime scene? I have always found it remarkable the killer never left any signs of a struggle, no mess, no footprint or smears. Regardless of the times that doesn't leave any detective much to work with.
Forensically, I suppose nowadays they would check for fluids and fibres, (one of Kellogg's less successful breakfast ranges), but aside from TV crap like CSI, even that doesn,t make for an open and shut case. A good example is Ian Huntley, there was concrete forensics but the police still put the time into building an old fashioned case based on witnesses, motive, opportunity etc. The forensics were important but without the police work it's not enough on its own.
I think that the fact that the killer was able to move unseen, never raising the alarm, never arousing suspicion in himself would make the case difficult to solve today. Unless he took a selfie and plastered it all over social media, which sadly is quite likely.

[Damaso Marte]

Having looked up the formal definition of "organized" and "disorganized" serial killers, I believe Jack the Ripper belongs in the disorganized category, but recall these are just terms of art in criminology and don't have the same meaning as the common, everyday usage of these words.

That said, it is a common talking point of mine that the evidence strongly suggests a killer who took steps to prevent getting caught. I further infer from this that the Ripper knew that what he was doing was seen as wrong by society, and so he was probably sane, at least for certain legal definition of the word sane.

Why do I think the evidence suggests a killer who took steps to prevent getting caught? For one, the stealth and silence that I see as the hallmark of a Ripper killing. He first and foremost avoided leaving behind any eyewitness evidence to his crimes. We don't even know for sure if anyone saw him, though I personally believe that Lawende and 1-2 other people did. All of the killings were done in near silence as well. Except for Cadosch, who heard indeterminate sounds, and the possible cry of "Murder!" with MJK, there are no ear witnesses, even though there were families sleeping above the Eddowes and Nichols murder scenes. I don't think silently taking down a victim is luck or bad policework, I think this is something the killer strove to do (and succeeded). Likewise, there are no blood trails from the scene of the crime, and things like no blood on the door out of the Chapman murder scene suggest he may have taken an effort to stay as clean as possible while butchering people on the street (though not so in Mitre Square, apparently). He also clearly worked fast.

I think today they'd probably get him on fibers he left at the crime scene, or perhaps he may have left some blood of his own on Eddowes.

[Abby Normal]

Having looked up the formal definition of "organized" and "disorganized" serial killers, I believe Jack the Ripper belongs in the disorganized category, but recall these are just terms of art in criminology and don't have the same meaning as the common, everyday usage of these words.

That said, it is a common talking point of mine that the evidence strongly suggests a killer who took steps to prevent getting caught. I further infer from this that the Ripper knew that what he was doing was seen as wrong by society, and so he was probably sane, at least for certain legal definition of the word sane.

Why do I think the evidence suggests a killer who took steps to prevent getting caught? For one, the stealth and silence that I see as the hallmark of a Ripper killing. He first and foremost avoided leaving behind any eyewitness evidence to his crimes. We don't even know for sure if anyone saw him, though I personally believe that Lawende and 1-2 other people did. All of the killings were done in near silence as well. Except for Cadosch, who heard indeterminate sounds, and the possible cry of "Murder!" with MJK, there are no ear witnesses, even though there were families sleeping above the Eddowes and Nichols murder scenes. I don't think silently taking down a victim is luck or bad policework, I think this is something the killer strove to do (and succeeded). Likewise, there are no blood trails from the scene of the crime, and things like no blood on the door out of the Chapman murder scene suggest he may have taken an effort to stay as clean as possible while butchering people on the street (though not so in Mitre Square, apparently). He also clearly worked fast.

I think today they'd probably get him on fibers he left at the crime scene, or perhaps he may have left some blood of his own on Eddowes.

a disorganised killer dosnt typically stalk victims
or brings his own weapon
or uses a ruse in the MO to entrap his victims
or never leave a clue or evidence
or intentionally leaves a clue
or leaves messages
or writes letters
or who escapes in the nick of time
or who astounds police and the public with his elusiveness
or kills quickly and efficiantly without a sound
or leaves no blood trace
or who can pull off the double event/ gsg
and leave everyone, police press experts scratching there heads to this day.

im sorry but you are quite wrong.

[DJA]

HI,

Here is my problem, considering 1888 police forensics I am hard press to understand what evidence he could have left behind.

Would someone like to offer an argument as to what kind of evidence a 19th Century serial killer could have left behind; maybe identify what kind of mistakes you believe Saucy Jacky avoided.

Short of writing his name on the sidewalk with the victim's blood I can't conjure up what evidence he could have left behind.

According to Phillips ...... Strides' heart's "Right ventricle full of dark clot;left absolutely empty" means she died of strangulation.

Lack of blood spray confirms that.

There was no blood spray in Mitre Square either.

Was Eddowes strangled and moved?

Given the uncanny timing between beats,can we explain some of the missing half hour?

Three posters have good credentials on death by strangling,etc.

Errata,Abby,Joshua....