stuck in Dutfield's yard ?

[Monty]

May also explain the theory Jack the Ripper was left handed Colin.

Monty

[Bridewell]

Arbeter Fraint

I may be wrong but Shabbatt begins just prior to sunset Friday and ends when the first 3 stars appear Saturday evening, or just after sunset depending on clud cover.

I have a very good friend who, ironically enough, explained to me last weekend that she couldn't type or write with her right hand as that would be deemed as working.

Monty

Hi Monty,

It would certainly explain why people may have been working late on the Arbeter Fraint - they had to catch up on everything since sunset on Friday.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Monty]

I may be wrong but Shabbatt begins just prior to sunset Friday and ends when the first 3 stars appear Saturday evening, or just after sunset depending on clud cover.

I have a very good friend who, ironically enough, explained to me last weekend that she couldn't type or write with her right hand as that would be deemed as working.

Monty

[Bridewell]

Shabbat (The Sabbath Day)

Isn't Saturday the Jewish day of rest?

My understanding is that the Sabbath begins and ends at sunset.

This is from www.judaism.about.com:

Question: When does Shabbat begin and end each week?

Answer: The Torah describes creation, "And there was evening, and there was morning, one day." Thus, according to Judaism, a new day begins in the evening, at sunset.

You make an interesting point though which answers, I think, an earlier poster's question. A Torah-observant Jew would have been allowed to start work at sunset on the Saturday evening but not before.

Regards, Bridewell.

P.s: There are other Jewish holy days which are also shabbat but, thinking only of the weekly Shabbat day, Annie Chapman alone was killed on the Sabbath. If there are any Jewish posters on the forum please confirm (or otherwise) that I have got this right as I am not Jewish myself.

[Phil Carter]

Right but he wasn't caught in the act in Dutfield's Yard either, was he? We are dealing with an extremely canny killer or one outrageously lucky character, or both.

Best regards

Chris

Hello Chris G,

Extremely canny or outrageously lucky?

The killer(s) certainly had nerve, however many there were. The luck also comes down to a certain level of competance in that the police seemed to be all at sea at times.
Compare the year long report revealed yesterday about the Oslo/Utøya massacres and how damning it has come down against the police.

I for one didnt think at the time they handled the situation THAT badly until I read the report. Some of it shows shocking incompetance at management level.
I think, like Oslo/Utøya, the police simply weren't prepared and were taken off guard to an extent by the Whitechapel crimes. And again, like Oslo/Utøya, they were led poorly.

Breivik obviously believed, correctly as it turned out, that with planning he could achieve his goal. It begs a question. How planned were the Whitechapel murders.
Thats where nerve comes into play as well, I submit.

Not all can be compared of course. Only parts.

Best wishes

Phil

[ChrisGeorge]

I would suggest to you that, if it was the same man, he had already been a cool character three weeks earlier in the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street where there was the same problem of getting in and out, or maybe even more so, and he had handled that competently without getting caught.

Chris

But he wasnt caught in the act there. And although he could have been aware of Cadach on the other side of the fence..it was'nt quite the same situation.

Regards.

Right but he wasn't caught in the act in Dutfield's Yard either, was he? We are dealing with an extremely canny killer or one outrageously lucky character, or both.

Best regards

Chris

[spyglass]

I would suggest to you that, if it was the same man, he had already been a cool character three weeks earlier in the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street where there was the same problem of getting in and out, or maybe even more so, and he had handled that competently without getting caught.

Chris

But he wasnt caught in the act there. And although he could have been aware of Cadach on the other side of the fence..it was'nt quite the same situation.

Regards.

[Gene Lewis]

I suggested; not been slaughtered, yet...

[lynn cates]

small fee

Hello Jon. Thanks. If I recall properly there was a nominal fee--but some were available for free distribution.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Ahh,...your Arbeter Fraint article?
(by the way, was this paper free?)"

It was provided by Chris Phillips from YIVO. Translation runs between $200-$300 (USD) per page. Article was part of 3 pp.

I'm sorry Lynn, I didn't mean the modern translation. I meant was the newspaper a free publication in 1888.
Was it sold by the Club, or handed out free as a flyer?, etc.
If Mr Deerstalker was a paperboy, to whom was he delivering them at 12:30 am on a Sunday morning?

Thanks, Jon S.

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi all,
It has always been my thought that if the killer was interupted by the horse and cart coming into the yard, then natrual instinct would make the killer run further into the yard and stay in the shadows. Calmly hiding behind the gate and then sliding out doesnt seem likely to me...he would have to be one cool character.
I remember the last time I suggested this somewhere on the casebook, I was slaughtered ( excuse the pun )
Regards.

I would suggest to you that, if it was the same man, he had already been a cool character three weeks earlier in the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street where there was the same problem of getting in and out, or maybe even more so, and he had handled that competently without getting caught.

Chris

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Mike, Chris. Thank you very kindly indeed.

Cheers.
LC

[spyglass]

One question, maybe allready discussed:could Jack have been stuck inside Dutfields Yard when the cart came in, and while he was cutting Liz?
Did he had to wait for Diemschutz went searching for help to leave the court ?

is that a "maybe scenario" ?

Thanks gentlemen...

Hi all,
It has always been my thought that if the killer was interupted by the horse and cart coming into the yard, then natrual instinct would make the killer run further into the yard and stay in the shadows. Calmly hiding behind the gate and then sliding out doesnt seem likely to me...he would have to be one cool character.
I remember the last time I suggested this somewhere on the casebook, I was slaughtered ( excuse the pun )
Regards.

[ChrisGeorge]

Did the Arbeter Fraint, being a newspaper, ever print anything about this murder?

Hello Barbara. Try here.

Cheers.
LC

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6489

Thank you, Lynn. I have just caught up with this, though it has been here on Casebook for some time.

It provides a tremendous insight into the club on the night of the Stride murder and shows how comprehensive was the police search of the club and the interrogation of the club members, which might not be as obvious from other sources. Great stuff. Bravo.

Cheers

Chris

[Michael W Richards]

I think so, but, to me, more than anything, they indicate that she was meeting someone - someone for whom it was important to have fresh breath. She didn't have much money, but had spent a little of what she had on breath fresheners. She had them in her hand, so had either just met the person concerned or anticipated doing so at any moment. My $64,000 question would be:

Who was she so anxious to impress - and what happened to him?

Regards, Bridewell.

Hi Bridewell,

Well youve hit upon my choice for why she was there, as she was,... boot length skirt, Bonnet, cashous for the breath and a maidenfern on her breast.

Curiously just after PC Smith leaves we have a club member stating he was returning to the club at 12:40am and entering via the gates. He doesnt say why he was returning, just that he had dropped off a date he had for the meeting. Do men ever "date" 2 women in the same night...one, perhaps for appearance and one later for... lets say, adventure?

I find it interesting that Eagle states that he was queasy at the sight of blood, yet he also states he ran "pell-mell" down the stairs when someone came in to tell of the body found at the gates. Did he leave his 2nd date in the passageway for a moment when he ran in to perhaps pick up his pay for speaking that night?

Maybe someone disliked her coziness with the member and told her to get lost and leave him be. Maybe she said no. Maybe someone didnt know she was with a member and incorrectly assumed she was a spy. Maybe she turned down a rough type in a demeaning way. Any or all of those might explain the physical evidence.

And Lynn did us all a terrific favor by getting those papers translated on his own nickel and making them freely available to study with.

Best regards,

Michael