stuck in Dutfield's yard ?

[lynn cates]

Don't be Cross with Dimshits.

Hello Colin. Thanks.

I can live with that--umm, Dimshits, not Cross.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Why can't the poney be a suspect?

[Cogidubnus]

Why can't the poney be a suspect?

Because the cat(es) did it...

Dave

[lynn cates]

'Pun my word.

Hello Dave. Cute. But let's not horse around.

What is your mane point?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

... However, Stride's feet were at the swing of the gate, which means she and her killer were POSSIBLY standing behind the right gate door at the time of the murder. This was also the gate door that had the wicker gate in the middle of it. If Jack ...... were still standing behind the gate, in the darkness, and found himself blocked by the cart, he would have escaped through the oh-so-handy wicker gate.

The gates appear to open flat back against the walls on either side of the alleyway.
Didn't those wicket-doors open inwards? How could one open an inward swinging door if the gate was against the wall?

Unless his name was Houdini?

Jon S.

[Lechmere]

Yes good point there Wickerman about the wicker gate - but then I guess you must be an expert?

Bridewell - you compare Dimshits with Cross?
Did Dimshits give a fake name?
Did Dimshits abandon the body?
Was Dimshits discovered by the body by someone else prior to him raising the alarm?
Did a policeman claim that Dimshits misled him?
Can Dimshits be linked to any other murder scene?
Etc etc etc etc

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

In theory the thread suggestion is possible had the killer still been over the dead woman at the time Diemshutz entered the gates. Which would suggest that he killed her while hearing a cart and horse coming to him, and that Liz was lying between himself and the gates. Since her head is very close to the wall, that second scenario isnt very likely either.

As Lynn pointed out, moving the death back less than 10 minutes satisfies a lot of timing statements from various club and non-club sources. I disagree with you Lynn however on the overall value of Mortimer and Spooner, it was Spooner that directed me to look deeper at all the witness accounts.

As long as credence is given to Israel Schwartz's alleged statement...(we never have had the opportunity to see the actual one),...in my opinion this crime remains unsolvable.

His event, although not seen or heard by any other witness in the immediate area at the time, (Brown, Spooner, Mortimer, young couple), places the murder victim outside the gates and still standing at 12:45am.

Despite the many witnesses who on that night stated they were alerted to a body in the passageway before 1am. Some said as early as 12:40ish. Some were club members. One was not.

I personally feel that Schwartz was an attempt by the club, as an afterthought, to alleviate all suspicions on the club of any wrongdoing in this murder, and by implication, since this murder is assumed a Ripper kill, with the Whitechapel murders in general.

A antisemitic gentile assailant attacks off site just before the murder.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Michael W Richards]

That antisemitic aspect is also quite interesting when juxtaposed with the later discovery off Goulston, close to 3am.

Perhaps Kates killer knew something unflattering about the Jewish Club at Berner Street.

Best regards,

Mike

[mariab]

Perhaps Kates killer knew something unflattering about the Jewish Club at Berner Street.

They wore really unflattering clothes.

[Tom_Wescott]

The gates appear to open flat back against the walls on either side of the alleyway.
Didn't those wicket-doors open inwards? How could one open an inward swinging door if the gate was against the wall?

Unless his name was Houdini?

There you go, pushing your favorite suspect on us again.

Hi Gene,

I personally thank the Ripper fully intended to kill two women that night, and therefore, out of necessity, the first one couldn't be butchered to the full extreme. I also believe it was intentional to kill the women across police jurisdictions. This makes absolutely perfect sense from the killer's perspective.

Hi Mr. Lucky,

I'm not sure how much more I can tell you about it. The two stable gates looked alike, with the difference being that the one in Buck's Row was locked, the one in Berner Street was not.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

problems

Hello Mike. Thanks. I think I understand your position. However, my problems are these:

1. Mortimer seems to have missed a good bit that was going on that night and which was corroborated by others.

2. Spooner admits that he was only guessing about the time.

3. Kozebrodske seems to have misfired when placing Kate's body--he claims her neck was 15-18 feet from the back door. That would place her outside (!) the gates. I am therefore a bit hesitant about his time estimate.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike. Thanks. I think I understand your position. However, my problems are these:

1. Mortimer seems to have missed a good bit that was going on that night and which was corroborated by others.

2. Spooner admits that he was only guessing about the time.

3. Kozebrodske seems to have misfired when placing Kate's body--he claims her neck was 15-18 feet from the back door. That would place her outside (!) the gates. I am therefore a bit hesitant about his time estimate.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

On your first point Fanny didnt see anyone near or in front of the gates from 12:30 on, except the young couple and Goldstein at around 12:55am. neither did anyone else...only in Israels statement synopsis do we have activity near the gates during that period. Brown saw the young couple Fanny saw, Fanny saw Goldstein who only came forward days later, and neither Brown nor Fanny nor Edward Spooner saw anyone in or leaving Berner Street or near the club. Fanny did see some of what others saw, and had her sighting of Goldstein verified when he came forward.

Its just that she saw and heard none of Israels event.

Remember, the fact that she didnt see Eagle isnt really problematic when you factor in his allegiance to the club as well as Wess and Diemshutz. And likely Israels. For this premise to be a reality the senior club staff must have lied to enable a short time to work up some club saving story. Eagle says he arrived at 12:40, Louis says he arrived at 1:00...with no-one to verify either of their times. Not even Lave..who says he was at the gates when Eagle says he arrived.

On point 2, Spooners guess started with the closing time of the pub, so we have a legitimate start time. His story about making his way leisurely to the corner by the Beehive with his date can be estimated to be no more than 20 minutes reasonably, then he says he spends 20-25 minutes there before seeing the Jewish men heading towards the Grove intersection. His time alone is one thing, the fact that its corroborated by Issac Kozebrodksi and others that night when interviewed is another. Isaac said he got back to the club at 12:30 and about 10 minutes later he was summoned to the body in the passageway. He also says he was sent alone for help. For that to be true Louis must have lied when he said Issac accompanied him ....perhaps.

Almost every story about the reaction of the club to the murder intimates that Isaac[sic] K, not a member named Isaacs, went with Louis for help. You would think on that same night less than 1 hour after the murder that Isaac K would have remembered leaving with someone. And about when he heard of the body, considering we have his arrival time by his own words.

On point 3, in fact I believe he was essentially correct there Lynn....Liz's body was found approximately 18 feet from the side door. Where her neck was specifically can only be judged by her heads approximate distance from the wall...which was approx 6 inches. I believe that from the gate post to the side door was some 20 feet.

The only stories given that same night that do not address these timing issues are really Eagles and the Diemshitz's. The only story that has Liz alive and off the property between 12:30 and 1am is Israels.

None of these 3 men have a single corroborating account to rely on. And all are intimately involved with the Club itself.

Cheers mate,

Mike R

[lynn cates]

punctus contra punctum

Hello Mike. Thanks.

“Remember, the fact that she didn't see Eagle isn’t really problematic when you factor in his allegiance to the club as well as Wess and Diemshutz. And likely Israels. For this premise to be a reality the senior club staff must have lied to enable a short time to work up some club saving story. Eagle says he arrived at 12:40, Louis says he arrived at 1:00...with no-one to verify either of their times. Not even Lave..who says he was at the gates when Eagle says he arrived.”

Is the suggestion that all three were prevaricating? My point is that Mrs. Mortimer seems to have missed both Lave and Eagle. This makes one wonder whether 1. she were very attentive and 2. whether she were there continuously?

“On point 2, Spooner’s guess started with the closing time of the pub, so we have a legitimate start time. His story about making his way leisurely to the corner by the Beehive with his date can be estimated to be no more than 20 minutes reasonably, then he says he spends 20-25 minutes there before seeing the Jewish men heading towards the Grove intersection. His time alone is one thing, the fact that its corroborated by Issac Kozebrodksi and others that night when interviewed is another. Isaac said he got back to the club at 12:30 and about 10 minutes later he was summoned to the body in the passageway. He also says he was sent alone for help. For that to be true Louis must have lied when he said Issac accompanied him ....perhaps.”

But my main point is that not everyone is good at estimating time. One can be off significantly in that regard. Had he fixed the time with a watch, even one slightly off, it would have lent credence to his estimate.

“Almost every story about the reaction of the club to the murder intimates that Isaac[sic] K, not a member named Isaacs, went with Louis for help. You would think on that same night less than 1 hour after the murder that Isaac K would have remembered leaving with someone. And about when he heard of the body, considering we have his arrival time by his own words.”

Well, almost his own words. A translator perhaps?

“On point 3, in fact I believe he was essentially correct there Lynn....Liz's body was found approximately 18 feet from the side door. Where her neck was specifically can only be judged by her heads approximate distance from the wall...which was approx 6 inches. I believe that from the gate post to the side door was some 20 feet.”

I assume that the 18 feet was from east door post to the gate post. If we take back 4’ 7” for the gate and 6-12” clearance between the opened gate and her feet, then count about 5 ½ feet for her body, minus about a foot as he was drawn up, that could not allow for 15-18 feet from neck to door. My point is that it was an estimate and a good bit off.

“The only stories given that same night that do not address these timing issues are really Eagles and the Diemshitz's. The only story that has Liz alive and off the property between 12:30 and 1am is Israel’s.”

Well, I am no fan of Schwartz’s story.

“None of these 3 men have a single corroborating account to rely on. And all are intimately involved with the Club itself.”

True enough. But I wonder whether Lave and Eagle would not have been prudent to declare that they were not outside at all?

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Yes good point there Wickerman about the wicker gate - but then I guess you must be an expert?

Bridewell - you compare Dimshits with Cross?

Apologies to all for introducing - even in a jocular fashion - the name of Cross onto a Dutfields Yard thread.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Lynn,

Nice rebuttals Lynn, however I do see where there are cracks that I might have some plaster for;

Point 1 rebuttal: "Is the suggestion that all three were prevaricating? My point is that Mrs. Mortimer seems to have missed both Lave and Eagle. This makes one wonder whether 1. she were very attentive and 2. whether she were there continuously?"

The suggestion is yes, that all 3 lied, abeit to greater and lesser amounts. Louis may have lied about his arrival time and to whom he went and what he did upon his arrival. Eagle actually hedged his statement on the stand remarking that he "couldnt be sure a body wasnt there" when he passed around 12:40, by his own account. And Lave missed Eagle at 12:40 at the gate when they were both supposedly there so its no surprise Fanny did.
I do not believe that Fanny was at the door continuously, but as she stated very early on, she was at the door "off and on" from 12:30 until 1...perhaps continuously from 12:50 until 1am. She did see the young couple and she did see Goldstein. Brown saw the young couple. She heard boot steps. She saw and heard.

Point 2: "My main point is that not everyone is good at estimating time. One can be off significantly in that regard. Had he fixed the time with a watch, even one slightly off, it would have lent credence to his estimate."

Very true, however the ones that had reason to mark their time by clock shortly before their involvement in this drama can be assumed to have been close to accurate in their estimates.

Point 3: "Well, almost his own words. A translator perhaps?"

Im not sure that Isaac needed one Lynn, but I do know that all the men that night gave statements and its probable that many did not speak English. Someone translated. Which raises a interesting sidebar....Goldstein. We know he came in with a translator I believe on the Tuesday night and his statement verified Fanny Mortimer's Black Bag man. But do we know why he was there for certain? Heres the thing...IF the kill takes place at around 12:40-12:45...really, on the earlier side of that...and the killer goes into the club via the side door...he could leave via the front door minutes later and walk past the gate just looking in and moving along.

Point 3b: "I assume that the 18 feet was from east door post to the gate post. If we take back 4’ 7” for the gate and 6-12” clearance between the opened gate and her feet, then count about 5 ½ feet for her body, minus about a foot as he was drawn up, that could not allow for 15-18 feet from neck to door. My point is that it was an estimate and a good bit off."

I think the body, and I have no way of knowing from which part but I assume her head, since her feet bottoms face the gates...was 18 feet from the side door. That means she was near the wall, behind the left gate slightly ajar, her feet inches from the gate. I believe the known measurements bear out the statement Lynn.

Point 3c: "Well, I am no fan of Schwartz’s story."

On that we heartily agree. I again add though, its Swansons recollection of the report, its not verbatim Schwartz, and he does not appear to have any further post murder role.

Point 3c-1: "True enough. But I wonder whether Lave and Eagle would not have been prudent to declare that they were not outside at all?"

Well Eagle could have arrived when he said he did and simply lied about what happened as he arrived, and Lave could have been there too...but he was there before Eagle arrived also and looking out into the street from the gate...perhaps Lave felt someone might have seen him doing that. Maybe he was looking out into the street when Eagle arrives and sees the few men gathered around the dying woman inside the gates.

Point summary is that cumulatively we have stories that do not corroborate each other, both in timing and action. There is a story that is supported by every high ranking member of the Jewish Mens Club onsite as well as a phantom witness account that suggests Liz Stride was not on their property when she met her likely killer, and the club had nothing to do with the event. It also suggests 2 men as possible accomplices, gentiles, and likely antisemitic. All of the accounts most critical are from senior members without any corroboration from outside sources.

The other story, created by the accounts of PC Smith, Fanny Mortimer, James Brown, Edward Spooner, a young couple and several club members that night by virtue of their published statements, suggests that Liz Stride was probably inside the passageway and out of sight for Fanny Mortimer and James Brown and the young couple for most of that last 25 minutes and that despite all accounts that stated the yard was empty, it was evidently not.

I believe at the least they must be considered accomplices because their story, self serving and desperate, allowed a killer to go unpunished. I think they knew what happened, maybe were not at fault, but had to make it look as nice as can be for their own survival.

All the best Lynn,
Michael