stuck in Dutfield's yard ?

[moonbegger]

Evening all

Here is my question , The Horses must have been familiar and possibly desensitized to the smell of blood, bearing in mind all the slaughter houses in and around whitchapel at the time , so would Hercules ( the Horse ) make such a kerfuffle over a very still , non moving dead body ? or is there the possibility that the horse was frightened in fact by the killer standing in the shadows ?

So the Killer Knows he is in a stable yard .. he hears a horse and cart coming down the street .. putting two and two together , he must figure there is a better than average chance that Hercules and co will be very shortly heading through them gates ! So .. how long does he have ? Does he stand back in the shadows and hope for them to pass ? or does he slip in through the back door of the working men's club ? Diemshitz said he never saw no one coming out of the yard .. so where did he go ?

So Would the killer take his chances with the all to possible assumption that Diemschitz would be screaming Murder as he trots up Berners street with his bloody knife .. or would he slip into the back door of the club .. which poses a whole bunch of other questions !

cheers

moonbegger .

[lynn cates]

Dimshits, part 2

Hello Moonbegger.

"Diemshitz said he never saw no one coming out of the yard .. so where did he go?"

Well, as Rob said above, the killer was very likely far away by the time Dimshits arrived.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Moonbegger

My (admittedly limited) experience of horses (my various daughters' friends ride the damned things...I just pat them and look knowledgeable) leads me to believe they're fairly sensitive creatures...and in particular prey animals...I think equines which could fully acclimatise to the slaughterhouses would be bloody rare indeed...and fresh bleeding from something as dramatic as a cut throat would spook virtually any horse...you need really to speak to an expert though....

There are essentially, I suppose, three possibilities

a) the killer's long gone (with the throat only partially severed compared to the other victims, the bleed out is slower and the flow lasts longer)...this gives rise to either an earlier timing (club hush-up) or a slightly later one (bs man?)

(b) the killer slipped out behind the cart, either as Diemshitz entered the yard, or in the wake of his hurrying off (bs man or a subsequent assaillant)

(c) the killer escaped via the club itself...(giving rise again, I suppose, to a possible "conspiracy theory")...

Which you believe in, I suggest, depends on exactly how much weight you place relatively on the testimony of Schwartz, Mortimer and Spooner...

I suppose there is actually a fourth possibility (says he all innocence shining)... that this particular killing wasn't actually a JtR venture... but I'll happily leave any exposition of that to others more qualified to comment (like Lynn for example!)....

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

It's about time.

Hello Dave. Mortimer and Spooner are not exactly the most reliable witnesses--in my book. Spooner, in particular, seems a bit cavalier about time keeping.

But consider this snippet from Lamb:

"Constable Henry Lamb, 252 H division, examined by the coroner, said: Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting. I went to meet them, and they called out, "Come on, there has been another murder." " (From Casebook.)

Now, I know all about the standard observations about LVP time pieces. Notwithstanding, consider the following:

1. Dimshits sees the clock read 1.00.

2. So let's put him in the yard at 1.01.

3. Pony shies, he probes with whip, lights a match or two, grasps the situation, heads inside. Are you good with 1.03?

4. The club lads head out after they have been informed of the body. Perhaps 1.04?

5. They find Lamb. Are you good with 1.05? (I'm flexible here.)

Now, if this is not objectionable, would it not contradict Lamb's "shortly before 1.00 time when the frenzied lads approached?

Also, the medical examiner estimate 5-10 minutes before 1.00.

If we shift the killing back by the 5-10 minutes suggested, there is no problem.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Gene,

Regarding your original question, I don't personally believe that Stride's killer was still in the yard when Diemshitz pulled up, however, if he were, he could not have been blocked in by the cart as the cart would likely have moved past him already. Diemshitz would have had to move the cart forward PAST the body to avoid stepping down onto it. However, Stride's feet were at the swing of the gate, which means she and her killer were POSSIBLY standing behind the right gate door at the time of the murder. This was also the gate door that had the wicker gate in the middle of it. If Jack (and yes, Jack's place as number one suspect for this murder has never changed, though it is debatable) were still standing behind the gate, in the darkness, and found himself blocked by the cart, he would have escaped through the oh-so-handy wicker gate. And incidentally, this gate was virtually identical in construction to the stable gate in front of which Polly Nichols was found murdered. I hope all this rambling is of some interest to you.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

The Horses must have been familiar and possibly desensitized to the smell of blood, bearing in mind all the slaughter houses in and around whitchapel at the time , so would Hercules ( the Horse ) make such a kerfuffle over a very still , non moving dead body?

A horse (and a dog) can most certainly distinguish between a slaughter house and a slain body. Poster Hunter (who knows a lot about horses) will confirm this if he sees this.

So the Killer Knows he is in a stable yard .. he hears a horse and cart coming down the street .. putting two and two together , he must figure there is a better than average chance that Hercules and co will be very shortly heading through them gates!

This is why it makes sense that Stride was an interrupted murder by accident, not by choice (as in, the killer having planned to do 2 that night).

Diemshitz said he never saw no one coming out of the yard .. so where did he go?

Diemshitz went inside for a couple minutes, to fetch a better light.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Lynn

Diemschitz comes past the tobacconists at 0100.

He commences entering Dutfields Yard at 0101 (as suggested)....and I've no real problem with the pony shying at say 0102 or 0103....

However..."Constable Henry Lamb, 252 H division, examined by the coroner, said: Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting. I went to meet them, and they called out, "Come on, there has been another murder." " (From Casebook.)

Now, I know all about the standard observations about LVP time pieces. Notwithstanding, consider the following:

1. Dimshits sees the clock read 1.00.

2. So let's put him in the yard at 1.01.

3. Pony shies, he probes with whip, lights a match or two, grasps the situation, heads inside. Are you good with 1.03?

4. The club lads head out after they have been informed of the body. Perhaps 1.04?

5. They find Lamb. Are you good with 1.05? (I'm flexible here.)

Now, if this is not objectionable, would it not contradict Lamb's "shortly before 1.00 time when the frenzied lads approached?

Also, the medical examiner estimate 5-10 minutes before 1.00.

If we shift the killing back by the 5-10 minutes suggested, there is no problem.

I've got to be honest Lynn, I can't see you being far out....but Schwartz?

Best wishes

Dave

[lynn cates]

May the Schwartz be with you!

Hello Dave. Thanks.

Regarding Schwartz, it is helpful to keep an open mind. As you have pointed out, his story is very convenient for the club. If not true, then easily disregarded.

But suppose it is true. Suppose that Israel saw a fracas in the 12.40-12.45 range. Then surely he saw a sequence of events that led up to Liz's demise? If she were dead by no later than 12.50, Dimshits' story could work just by a 5-10 minute tweak.

Cheers.
LC

[Gene Lewis]

Hi Tom,
thank's for your fine explications. I don't want to be absolutely stubborn or obstinate, but I can see in your story there's a tiny option fort Jack being stuck - even for a short laps of time - in Dutfield's. And I actually figure that's also the reason why he was so barbaric and furious, and unleashed against Eddowes : not only for an incomplete action, but mainly for having been trapped like a rat...
Regards
Gene

[Mr Lucky]

this gate was virtually identical in construction to the stable gate in front of which Polly Nichols was found murdered. I hope all this rambling is of some interest to you.

Hi Tom

That's very interesting indeed, can you tell us a bit more?

Thanks

[Stephen Thomas]

incidentally, this gate was virtually identical in construction to the stable gate in front of which Polly Nichols was found murdered.

Probably bought from the same company ie Stable Doors 'R' Us (Est.1792).

[moonbegger]

Hello all ,

And incidentally, this gate was virtually identical in construction to the stable gate in front of which Polly Nichols was found murdered.

Yes i have always found it interesting that all of the victims were found with their heads positioned very close to a doorway ( either a doorway in a wooden fence/gate or a house doorway ) like he had some kind of killer feng shui manual he was abiding by .

Chance , Coincidence , or by design ?

cheers

moonbegger .

[mariab]

Chance, Coincidence, or by design?

For convenience and to avoid apprehension.

[GregBaron]

Dirty deeds done dirt cheap...

Hello all ,



Yes i have always found it interesting that all of the victims were found with their heads positioned very close to a doorway ( either a doorway in a wooden fence/gate or a house doorway ) like he had some kind of killer feng shui manual he was abiding by .

Chance , Coincidence , or by design ?

cheers

moonbegger .

It had been suggested many moons ago Mr. moonbeggar (heh-heh) that such stable doors were used as backstops whilst indulging in the dirty deed...........Heaven forbid

Don't say you heard it here first..........



Greg

[Bridewell]

Cross & Diemschitz

Hello Dave. Thanks.

Regarding Schwartz, it is helpful to keep an open mind. As you have pointed out, his story is very convenient for the club. If not true, then easily disregarded.

But suppose it is true. Suppose that Israel saw a fracas in the 12.40-12.45 range. Then surely he saw a sequence of events that led up to Liz's demise? If she were dead by no later than 12.50, Dimshits' story could work just by a 5-10 minute tweak.

Cheers.
LC

If Cross can become a suspect by virtue of finding a body, why is the same not true of Diemschitz? Who's his alibi - the horse?
On a more serious note, if we go with Lynn's suggestion that Diemschitz's timing is 5 minutes out, and perhaps that Schwartz's watch (if he had one) was 5 minutes slow, I think everything else lines up.

Regards, Bridewell.