Did Jack leave the Scene by carriage?

[Luke111]

I just read the witness reports concerning the Polly Nichols murder,
and read the Harriet Lilly testimony, where she states

I slept in front of the house, and could hear everything that occured in the street. On that Thursday night I was somehow very restless. Well, I heard something I mentioned to my husband in the morning. It was a painful moan - two or three faint gasps - and then it passed away. It was quite dark at the time, but a luggage went by as I heard the sounds. There was, too, a sound as of whispers underneath the window. I distincly heard voices, but cannot say what was said - it was too faint. I then woke my husband, and said to him, "I don't know what possesses me, but I cannot sleep to-night."

Even though it was dark, a carriage that would be driving down bucksrow would most likely see a body lying in the street.wouldnt it? (ok, the driver could have thought she was drunk or uncounciouss, since the sight of people in the gutter wasnt uncommon in whitechapel.) But I am just wondering here. Even though this idea is very unlikely, I just thought I put it out here to hear some thoughts:
What if Jack left the scene by carriage/luggage?
(Of course he did not call a carriage at the scene, but he could have walked away from the scene, and get on a carriage from there. )
Happy to hear your thoughts...

[lynn cates]

hearing

Hello Luke. I'm wondering whether someone who could hear a moan from the street would not also hear a carriage as it passed?

Cheers.
LC

[Luke111]

Yeah, of course she must have heard both.
im just wondering why the carriage didnt discover the body. i mean, polly nichols must have been attacked very recently, when she was moaning like that. So theoretically a carriage could have been carrying Jack, who walked a couple of meters up to take a carriage.

[lynn cates]

whom?

Hello Luke. Do we know that it was Polly whom was moaning?

Cheers.
LC

[Raoul's Obsession]

Yeah, of course she must have heard both.
im just wondering why the carriage didnt discover the body. i mean, polly nichols must have been attacked very recently, when she was moaning like that. So theoretically a carriage could have been carrying Jack, who walked a couple of meters up to take a carriage.

I think the witness is refering to a train on the nearby tracks rather than a carriage in Bucks row. I agree that a carriage would be highly unlikely.

[ChrisGeorge]

I just read the witness reports concerning the Polly Nichols murder,
and read the Harriet Lilly testimony, where she states

I slept in front of the house, and could hear everything that occured in the street. On that Thursday night I was somehow very restless. Well, I heard something I mentioned to my husband in the morning. It was a painful moan - two or three faint gasps - and then it passed away. It was quite dark at the time, but a luggage went by as I heard the sounds. There was, too, a sound as of whispers underneath the window. I distincly heard voices, but cannot say what was said - it was too faint. I then woke my husband, and said to him, "I don't know what possesses me, but I cannot sleep to-night."

Even though it was dark, a carriage that would be driving down bucksrow would most likely see a body lying in the street.wouldnt it? (ok, the driver could have thought she was drunk or uncounciouss, since the sight of people in the gutter wasnt uncommon in whitechapel.) But I am just wondering here. Even though this idea is very unlikely, I just thought I put it out here to hear some thoughts:
What if Jack left the scene by carriage/luggage?
(Of course he did not call a carriage at the scene, but he could have walked away from the scene, and get on a carriage from there. )
Happy to hear your thoughts...

Raoul is correct. In other press versions of this witness statement by Mrs. Harriet Lilley, the sentence is rendered as "It was quite dark at the time, but a luggage train went by as I heard the sounds." See here in The People of 9 September 1888.

Best regards

Chris

[Robert]

My theory is that Jack was a trainspotter and Nichols made him miss his favourite engine. Hence the savagery of the attack.

[Lechmere]

I think he was either an abseiling trainspotter or a perhaps an early form of base jumper as the railway tracks were and are a good drop below
I believe the train was scheduled for 3.30 which is probably a little early for the murder.

For me the interesting thing about this press report is that it shows that journalists were in many ways better than the police in turning up witnesses.
The police failed to even knock up all the residents at Bucks Row to see of anyone had heard anything.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi all. I'm sure the police spoke to all these people. The whispering voices she heard shortly after Nichols' dying moans would surely have been Cross and Paul.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Adam Went]

I seem to recall that the idea of escape via carriage was mooted and discounted at the time of the murders. For the purposes of escaping, especially if shelter needed to be taken in a hurry, Jack would have been much better off on foot, especially if he was in decent physical shape which it would seem he was.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Lechmere]

Tom
At the inquest the police admitted that they hadn't interviewed all the residents. It was one of many **** ups that happened in the initial hours of this murder investigation.
The Cross/Paul conversation was at about 3.45 or later - well after the train anyway, so the conversation is unlikely to have been them.
I think it is more likely that she helpfully remembered things that really didn't happen, which is often the case in such circumstances.

(I didn't use a very bad word there - this forum must be very sensative!)
I forgot - the whispers could have been Cross and Polly of course

[lynn cates]

sleep patterns

Hello Lechmere.

"The Cross/Paul conversation was at about 3.45 or later - well after the train anyway, so the conversation is unlikely to have been them."

Indeed. But there is a phenomenon--experienced by many--in which you are aroused by a noise and then go back to sleep. A subsequent noise can reawaken the sleeper; but, the sleeper may severely misjudge the intervening time.

Also, there are times when one has difficulty sleeping and avers being awake, when, in fact, one was sleeping lightly at the time.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Carriage?

Afternoon all,

Well, in reply, where would he have got a carriage from? Jack London writes that he had great difficulty in persuading his "cabby" to drive into the East End. And if a private carriage, wouldn´t it have been noticed?

Best regards,
C4

[GregBaron]

Silent attack....

Hi all,

If Jack had a carriage, he also had a Top hat, flowing cape and Gladstone bag and we know the credence given the Toff hypothesis...........

Also, judging by the M.O., I doubt there was much moaning going on. no time really, between throttle and throat slicing....

I imagine a carriage passing at 3 or 4 in the morning would have been heard and duly noted by the locals........probably didn't happen very often......


Greg

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom
At the inquest the police admitted that they hadn't interviewed all the residents. It was one of many **** ups that happened in the initial hours of this murder investigation.
The Cross/Paul conversation was at about 3.45 or later - well after the train anyway, so the conversation is unlikely to have been them.
I think it is more likely that she helpfully remembered things that really didn't happen, which is often the case in such circumstances.

(I didn't use a very bad word there - this forum must be very sensative!)
I forgot - the whispers could have been Cross and Polly of course.

Okay, now I'm intrigued. What is your timeline for the murder, Cross & Paul hovering over the body, and where does the passing train fit in? As far as I can tell, our witness has strange moaning (a dying Nichols or a killer getting his rocks off) followed sometime shortly later by two whispering voices. As we know that a short time after her murder, two men (Cross and Paul) did indeed talk briefly over her body, what evidence would indicate this couldn't have been those two men? And if she heard OTHER people whispering, why didn't she hear Cross and Paul as well?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott