Did Jack leave the Scene by carriage?

[GregBaron]

Down a dark alley...

Hi all,

I think some of us mean a choke-hold when when we say strangle. I use the term throttle to distinguish. As Don pointed out and Lynn seconded, strangling someone to death is a long, bloody ordeal. Choking to unconsciousness is something else entirely. We worked this to death (no pun intended) on another thread some time ago.

I still think more should be made of how/when Jack learned to choke-hold.

Thanks for clarifying your position Lechmere, indeed what you suggest is a possibility although in my mind a remote one.

Oh yeah, this thread is about carriage rides isn't it?, I'd say we've again veered off course..............(pun intended)



Greg

[Errata]

I can think of one good reason Jack didn't flee the scene by carriage. The horse would have freaked out past control. Herd prey animals are incredibly sensitive to the smell of blood. Doctors and nurses used to be able to get cabs because they cleaned up with harsh soap or used carbolic acid. Butchers had a devil of a time getting a carriage. The cart stopped at the body of Liz Stride because the horse smelled blood, and would go no further towards a potential predator. A man soaked in blood would have a hard time hailing a cab. Unless the horse was doped there is no way it would stop near a bloody person. A horses defense is to run if it can. In the case of Liz Stride, the horse couldn't run as it couldn't turn around with the cart. Given the option to stop at the smell of blood (which the idiot with the whip might try to do) or run right past it as fast as possible, any horse is going to run. It would be a fight with the driver, but the driver ain't gonna win.

[Abby Normal]

Hi all,

I think some of us mean a choke-hold when when we say strangle. I use the term throttle to distinguish. As Don pointed out and Lynn seconded, strangling someone to death is a long, bloody ordeal. Choking to unconsciousness is something else entirely. We worked this to death (no pun intended) on another thread some time ago.

I still think more should be made of how/when Jack learned to choke-hold.

Thanks for clarifying your position Lechmere, indeed what you suggest is a possibility although in my mind a remote one.

Oh yeah, this thread is about carriage rides isn't it?, I'd say we've again veered off course..............(pun intended)



Greg

Hi greg
Its sometimes refered to as a "blood choke" to distinguish it from strangulation or "wind choke" (crushing the wind pipe-preventing air from getting to the lungs). It stops the flow of blood to the brain by compression on the neck arteries and takes only seconds to knock someone out. I dont know how long it takes to kill someone from this method, but I do know you can render them unconscious with relatively little force in a short time. But then again, if the ripper used a blood choke to knock out his victims, they would still be alive, heart beating, blood pumping, so if he cut their throats after knocking them out this way there would still be blood spray when he made the cut.

But perhaps he held on long enough using this method to kill them first before making a cut.

[GregBaron]

Choke then kill...

Its sometimes refered to as a "blood choke" to distinguish it from strangulation or "wind choke" (crushing the wind pipe-preventing air from getting to the lungs). It stops the flow of blood to the brain by compression on the neck arteries and takes only seconds to knock someone out. I dont know how long it takes to kill someone from this method, but I do know you can render them unconscious with relatively little force in a short time. But then again, if the ripper used a blood choke to knock out his victims, they would still be alive, heart beating, blood pumping, so if he cut their throats after knocking them out this way there would still be blood spray when he made the cut.

But perhaps he held on long enough using this method to kill them first before making a cut.

Hi Abnormal One,

I agree with you but I think there was blood spray from at least a few of the victims. Remember the 18 inch high blood on the fence at Hanbury St?

I fully believe he rendered the blood choke, took the victim to the ground until unconsciousness, then turned the neck away and slit the throat. The blood then pumped out into the gutter. The lack of blood on the top of the clothes, the lack of a sign of struggle, the jaw bruising and tongue protrusion (Chapman), the silence....... all indicate this to me.

Stride, Eddowes and MJK may have been attacked at the throat without the throttling, I suppose I'm speaking mostly of Nichols and Chapman ...

Strangulation to death brings blood up from the mouth.....the victims would have had blood all over the front of their clothing and the ripper would have a bigger mess to deal with.........not to mention the 5 minutes it might take............way too long considering the timeframes.............

This is how I see it at least.............


Greg

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abnormal One,

I agree with you but I think there was blood spray from at least a few of the victims. Remember the 18 inch high blood on the fence at Hanbury St?

I fully believe he rendered the blood choke, took the victim to the ground until unconsciousness, then turned the neck away and slit the throat. The blood then pumped out into the gutter. The lack of blood on the top of the clothes, the lack of a sign of struggle, the jaw bruising and tongue protrusion (Chapman), the silence....... all indicate this to me.

Stride, Eddowes and MJK may have been attacked at the throat without the throttling, I suppose I'm speaking mostly of Nichols and Chapman ...

Strangulation to death brings blood up from the mouth.....the victims would have had blood all over the front of their clothing and the ripper would have a bigger mess to deal with.........not to mention the 5 minutes it might take............way too long considering the timeframes.............

This is how I see it at least.............


Greg

Hi Greg
Thanks for the response. I agree.

[Tom_Wescott]

Strangulation to death brings blood up from the mouth

Yikes, this is rarely true.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

tongue

Hello Greg, Tom. Yes, a protruding or lacerated tongue would be more likely.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Indeed

Hello Greg, Tom. Yes, a protruding or lacerated tongue would be more likely.

Cheers.
LC

As seems to have been the case with Annie Chapman.

Just a couple of points on earlier posts:

Why would Cross & Paul be whispering? Surely, if they've just found a woman they think may be dead, it hardly matters if they wake someone up by talking about it? A whispered conversation is a secret one, surely? It would hardly matter to Cross & Paul if they were overheard.

"It takes at least 5 minutes" (to kill someone by strangulation). Is there any evidence to support this assertion?

Cheers, Bridewell.

[GregBaron]

Research available...

Hi all,

I'm no expert on strangulation nor do I particularly want to be. I based my statement on Ted Bundy readings where it was stated blood always comes up.

I'm sure the materials are out there if someone wants to research.

I think the point remains that there wasn't time to strangle - with a choke-hold being the more likely method.

I expect someone out there has superior knowledge on this point.

Good point about Cross and Paul whispering Bridewell...


Greg

[lynn cates]

Polly

Hello Bridewell.

"As seems to have been the case with Annie Chapman. "

Quite right. But Polly Nichols too.

Cheers.
LC

[Lechmere]

The human body often takes quite a while to become clinically dead – but this is slightly besides the point in a discussion about how a killer subdued and incapacitated his victim, and as a by product of this slowed or stopped the victim’s heart beat so that there was no appreciable arterial spray.

The Paul-Cross conversation was almost certainly whispered and yes they were ‘both’ not sure whether she was alive or dead. Paul suggested they prop her up to make her more presentable and even tried to pull her dress down further.
Cross seems to have opposed the idea of Polly being propped up which is fortunate as her neck wound would certainly have become apparent.
Cross initiated their conversation. I would also suggest that Cross initiated it with a whisper, and as a result the conversation continued in a whisper.

[Monty]

Is it stated Cross and Paul conducted their conversation in a whisper?

If so where?

Cheers
Monty

[Lechmere]

Is it stated Cross and Paul conducted their conversation in a whisper?

Stated by whom?

[Monty]

Is it stated Cross and Paul conducted their conversation in a whisper?

Stated by whom?

Either Paul or Cross.

Monty

[Lechmere]

Do you mean where – as in Bucks Row.
Or where as in where is the source for the whisper.
I don’t recall seeing a source for a whisper – it is just a hypothesis based on none of the residents hearing a conversation beyond some muffled voices.