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Seeking Little Alie St information (and a long hello)

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  • Seeking Little Alie St information (and a long hello)

    This is my first time posting but for many years I have lurked out of sight. It seems a bit rude for me to come here and ask for assistance right away. So by way of introduction/breaking the ice i am Australian based and have a deep love for London history especially that of the East End. I have spent 25 years reading every ripper book I could find, alas like so many here my first book was "The Final Solution" (for shame) in my defense I was 14 and it was the onky JTR our library had that wasnt stolen. It was 1984, back when there was no Internet to tell me it was crap, thankfully it only took me half the book to realize it was. Raised on a steady diet of Poe, Dickens and Ripper books my tastes were for gaslights, shadows and the like. I am rather well read on English and London history. I have been researching a book for about two years now, which has bought me to the streets of the East End twice now.*

    My book is set in a fictitious theatre in Little Alie St mainly set in present day and 1888 but spans the years between 1846 (when one of the Garrick Theatres burnt down) and now. Naturally a few key historical events like Jack the Ripper, Battle of Cable Street, The Blitz play a part. I have decided placed my theatre on the southern side of Little Alie St, where it sits like a stubborn relic surrounded by the demolition of the huge complex there. The books has many themes, and if people are interested I will add further details.

    Trust me when i say i have done a lot of leg work already, i have been researching for ages but have a few things I am still trying to get answers for and figured where else to go but to you all here.*

    1. I can't find any record of what was on the southern side of the street, the north seems to have heaps of info. Thought someone might still have access to Goads here
    2. What was the history of the Camelot Fashion building and when was it closed? (i was heartbroken to see it being knocked down)*
    3. Anyone have any old photos of Alie St and Leman St? (I have looked through your mega posts here with old pictures but they don't appear much
    4. Where can I find historical parish boundary maps?
    5. Any good places to research /see the damage the Blitz had on East End.

    I'm sure I am going to have more questions, god knows the more I read the more questions I have, so if anyone can point me in the right directions or if though have any insights into the history of this street I would love to hear it

    thanks
    writing by ghostlight
    Last edited by byghostlight; 06-30-2011, 06:43 PM.

  • #2
    Good evening, here is the street in 1888.
    s - south side west to east. n - north side east to west.

    Click image for larger version

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    You can find more years street listings at Historical Directories (here)
    Anyhoo, hope this is helpful. - Roy
    Sink the Bismark

    Comment


    • #3
      Evenin' bgl:

      Nice to have you with us. Me, I don't mind long hellos. (What I don't like is long goodbyes.) I see that you're already in Roy's good hands, and he's a very helpful chap. He's certainly answered several of my questions in the past.

      As to your question #4, I believe that parish boundary maps are on this site somewhere; however, with any luck, Colin Roberts will see this thread and give you all the information you need.

      Comment


      • #4
        Click image for larger version

Name:	marie-lloyd-1890c.jpg
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ID:	662428

        Originally posted by byghostlight View Post
        My book is set in a fictitious theatre...
        That could be interesting. Roy
        Sink the Bismark

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Roy

          Where did you get the 1888 directory from?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by The Grave Maurice View Post
            As to your question #4, I believe that parish boundary maps are on this site somewhere; however, with any luck, Colin Roberts will see this thread and give you all the information you need.
            Thanks, Ken!

            Parish boundaries are clearly delineated, on both the 1870's series, and 1890's series Ordnance Surveys.

            However, they are much more easily distinguishable, on the 1870's series.

            In any case, byghostlight, how may I be of assistance?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Robert View Post
              Hi Roy

              Where did you get the 1888 directory from?
              Right here on Casebook from the kind Mr. Proto-Dave

              http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=4618&page=6

              Try post #52. Seems to still work.

              Roy
              Sink the Bismark

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks Roy - and David.

                Comment


                • #9
                  thanks Roy for the extract, i have been slowly working through that link as well and the picture of Marie Lloyd was also a nice touch

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    hi Colin, i have seen the boundaries on some map i saw a while back and that bit of knowledge was unimportant at the time but naturally now i need it i cant remember where

                    basically i have been trying to understand the boundaries between Christchurch, St Mary's Matfelon and St Georges-in-the-East and where Alie Street fits in.

                    I was on St Georges amazing website and it seemed historical to be part of their parish but given its location thought it would come under St Marys?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I came across this while looking for something else:

                      http://booth.lse.ac.uk/notebooks/b351/jpg/53.html

                      It is the notes taken as part of Charles Booth’s poverty investigation, while being shown around by Inspector Reid in 1898.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi Ghost

                        In both 1881 and 1891, Little Alie St is in the civil parish of Whitechapel, and the ecclesiastical parish of St Marks.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by byghostlight View Post
                          hi Colin, i have seen the boundaries on some map i saw a while back and that bit of knowledge was unimportant at the time but naturally now i need it i cant remember where

                          basically i have been trying to understand the boundaries between Christchurch, St Mary's Matfelon and St Georges-in-the-East and where Alie Street fits in.

                          I was on St Georges amazing website and it seemed historical to be part of their parish but given its location thought it would come under St Marys?
                          The Bottom Line:

                          Little Alie Street was situated, quite comfortably, within the boundaries of the Civil Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel.

                          ~~~

                          The Whitechapel Registration District: A sort of 'Greater Whitechapel'


                          Whitechapel Registration District / Poor Law Union: 1888 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)
                          Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
                          Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2010

                          Whitechapel Registration District / Poor Law Union (Populations, in Accordance with the Census of England & Wales, 1891):
                          - The Liberty of Norton Folgate (Green): 1,449
                          - The Old Artillery Ground (Aqua): 2,138
                          - The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields (Blue): 22,859
                          - The Hamlet of Mile End New Town (Orange): 11,303
                          - The Parish of Holy Trinity ('Minories') (Yellow): 301
                          - The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (Red): 32,326
                          ----- {Portion within the County of Middlesex, -1889; ... the County of London, 1889-1965: 32,284}
                          ----- {Portion within the City of London, -1900: 42}
                          - The Liberty of Her Majesty's Tower of London (Orange): 933
                          ----- {The Liberty of the Tower: n/a}
                          ----- {The Precinct of Old Tower Without: 65}
                          ----- {The Tower: 868}
                          - The Precinct of St. Katharine (Blue): 182
                          - The Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (Green): 2,971
                          ----- {Portion within the County of Middlesex, -1889; ... the County of London, 1889-1965: 2,971}

                          The portion of the Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (42) that was situated within the Municipality of the City of London, was a component of the Whitechapel Registration District / Poor Law Union; until becoming a part of the Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate, City of London, in 1900; and accordingly being then included within the Registration / Poor Law administration of the City of London.

                          - Total Population - Whitechapel Registration District / Poor Law Union (In Accordance with the Census of England & Wales, 1891): 74,462


                          ~~~


                          City of London Registration District / Poor Law Union (In Minor Part); Whitechapel Registration District / Poor Law Union (In Entirety); St. George in the East Registration District / Poor Law Parish (In Major Part): 1888 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)
                          Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
                          Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2010

                          This image includes the additions of the City of London (in minor part) (purple); Little Alie Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (green); and the Parish of St. George in the East (in major part) (blue).

                          Incidentally, the green dot that appears in both images, is the murder-site mean-center, i.e. the 'average' of those murder-sites, which are most widely associated with the mystery of 'Jack the Ripper': Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes, and Kelly.

                          City of London Registration District / Poor Law Union (Population, in Accordance with the Census of England & Wales, 1891):
                          - All Applicable Parochial and Extra-Parochial Constituencies: 38,320

                          St. George in the East Registration District / Poor Law Parish (Population, in Accordance with the Census of England & Wales, 1891):
                          - The Parish of St. George in the East: 45,795

                          - The area that is situated directly north of the City of London and the Liberty of Norton Folgate, constituted, more-or-less, a portion of the Parish of St. Leonard Shoreditch.

                          - The area that is situated directly north of the Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields, the Hamlet of Mile End New Town, and the Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel, constituted, more-or-less, a portion of the Parish of St. Matthew Bethnal Green.

                          - The area that is situated along the northeastern edge of the image, and which extends westward, between the Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel and the Parish of St. George in the East, constituted, more-or-less, a portion of the Hamlet of Mile End Old Town.

                          - The area that is situated along the southeastern boundary of the Parish of St. George in the East, constituted, more-or-less, a portion of the Parish of St. Paul Shadwell.

                          - The area that is situated along the southern and southwestern boundaries of the Parish of St. George in the East, constituted the entirety of the Parish of St. John of Wapping.

                          ~~~

                          Because of their close proximity to St. Mary's Church, i.e. the Parish Church of St. Mary Whitechapel; the western-most reaches of the Hamlet of Mile End Old Town, and the northwestern-most reaches of the Parish of St. George in the East were colloquially referred to as 'Whitechapel'.

                          ~~~

                          Originally posted by byghostlight View Post
                          St Mary's Matfelon
                          Personally, I would not use the 'Matfelon' tag, in reference to either the Parish or Parish Church of St. Mary Whitechapel.

                          On the basis of everything that I have been able to gather, thus far; I am thoroughly convinced that it was merely a colloquial - and, therefore, technically incorrect - carryover, from the dedication of the Chapel of Ease, i.e. the 'White Chapel', that belonged to the Ancient Parish of St. Dunstan Stepney, until its consecration, in ~1329, as the Parish Church of St. Mary Whitechapel.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Robert View Post
                            In both 1881 and 1891, Little Alie St is in the civil parish of Whitechapel, ...
                            As was the case, in 1331, 1341, 1351, ..., and 1901, Robert.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              See, bgl? Told ya: Colin is the man.
                              Please let us know when your book is available. I was rearranging my bookshelves this afternoon and noticed that I have room for one more.

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