Bloody Tourists

[Rubyretro]

If there is one thing I can personally attest to it is that Jewish radicals/communists argue constantly and loudly. And with much shaking of papers in each others faces (family reunions are trip). I would be surprised however if they did it in English. At that time Yiddish would have been the common language all Jews shared. It would be interesting to know whether or not the arguments were in English or not. Yiddish might indicate the expected pitfalls of living near a radical meeting house. English might indicate criminal activity common in the area. It's moot either way in the case of Liz Stride, but might be useful in establishing the "flavor" (if you will) of the neighborhood.

[/QUOTE

Hi Errata ..what you say is very convincing ;I believe it.

I wonder if the witness description couldn't encompass all varieties of different loud noise in front of the Club, though ? Isn't it possible that there were arguments, or just 'enthusiastic' debates between club members, and also heckling and even physical attacks by outsiders (one does not exclude the other). To a neighbour hearing noise, he maybe wouldn't hear the difference ?

[Errata]

[/QUOTE
I wonder if the witness description couldn't encompass all varieties of different loud noise in front of the Club, though ? Isn't it possible that there were arguments, or just 'enthusiastic' debates between club members, and also heckling and even physical attacks by outsiders (one does not exclude the other). To a neighbour hearing noise, he maybe wouldn't hear the difference ?

I would say that's most likely the case. There just seems to be some curiosities in the descriptions of the neighborhood.

Clearly it's not a "safe" street, it's in the east end. It is not known for prostitution, despite it's location off a major street. I can only imagine that Commercial Road was not known for prostitution either. It is a noisy street, with arguments heard on a regular basis. There is a socialist club whose members are primarily Jewish. There is a possibility of gang activity.

Members of the club brought their families with them to evening meetings. This implies a reasonable amount of safety. But Shwartz immediately gets out of Dodge when someone shouts "lipski" at him. As though he expected physical attack and not just a stream of insults. And he is chased. This implies a fair amount of danger. Stride is attacked prior to her death. But instead of being pushed into the relative privacy of the yard, the description implies she was being yanked out of it. She screams, but not loudly. This can indicate that instead of screaming in fear, she was screaming in outrage or protest. Diemshutz finds a drunk woman passed out in the street, and does not seem to find this terribly unusual. He goes to get a couple of friends to help her. He decides to help her, which is a little unexpected and speaks well for the character of the street. But he has to get a couple of friends to come with him. That's a little odd. He could have just dragged her out of the way, or thrown her in the cart, or come back with a bucket of water to throw on her. It seems unlikely that he would need a couple of other men to rouse a drunk. Unless it wasn't safe for him to be alone in the street for the time it took to get her moving.

If all of these things were true here and now, I would immediately say that a bunch of rednecks got together and were "cleaning up the neighborhood". With fists and stuff. I can't even begin to know whether or not it's remotely likely in Berner st. But the whole thing is a little contradictory. So I get curious about the general tone of the neighborhood.

[Scorpio]

I personally believe that Kelly's killer made contact with her in a local pub on the night of her death or withindays of it , and there is an apochryphal account to this effect. Kelly made her situation known to him, and her killer may have decided to take advantage of it. This decision may have been the consequence of the number of plain clothes officers known to be patrolling in that area after the " double event ". The hiatus in Ripper attacks after Eddowes, which was over a month, suggests he was wary indeed.

[Scorpio]

In And Out

A quick look at a contemporary map makes it clear how easily accessable the murder sites are. By utilising the modern A1202, Commercial St, and the A11, Whitechapel Rd, no fetid corner lost in Stygian darkness was beyond a few minutes walk for the visitor. A simple calculation which incorporates the murder sites of Tabram,Nichols,Chapman,Stride,Eddowes and Kelly,places the median point suspiciously close to the A11, so does it represent a geographical common denominator in this case?. FBI agents often council paying particular attention to the first crime in a series, since logic would suggest that it is the least well organised. Perhaps the entry to the A11 was actually within sight of George Yard. Next consider Polly Nichols, who was last seen alive walking along the A11. If the double event hypothesis is correct, then the killer almost certainly used the A11 at some point between Berner St and Mitre Square. Lastly, there is Ghoulston St, which is also very close to the A11, but it is also close to the A1202,.so was Commercial St used as a getaway route after the double event?. Millers Court and Hanbury St are easily accessable to Commercial St, so was it used as an alternative entry?.

[caz]

I can only imagine that Commercial Road was not known for prostitution either.

Why do you imagine that, Errata?

Nobody at the time - press, police or public - seemed to think it was so very unlikely that Stride had been out that night 'plying her trade' and had been murdered as a result, so why the problem for some people in 2010?

If Berner St was relatively prostitute free, then maybe she did see the club as a 'safe', or at least safer place to be at that point of the night, when she was temporarily without male company and apparently without the means for a bed either. But it's equally possible that she had found the odd customer at that spot on previous occasions after the pubs had turned out, and was simply trying her luck en route to one of the more usual pick-up places along the main road, perhaps in the directon of the docks - except that she didn't make it out of that yard.

Regardless of whether her killer had business in Berner St or was just passing along it, he encountered her there and took the opportunity to cut her throat. I don't see why any of this had to be a massive coincidence if it was a crime of opportunity. Her killer had to be somewhere, and she happened to be a known prossie, who had ended up alone and presumably penniless after midnight, and had chosen to hang around the entrance of that club.

It would have been even less of a coincidence if the man had spotted her elsewhere, or been in her company earlier ("you'd say anything but your prayers" sounds like the lady in question was saying something she thought the man wanted to hear, but the man wasn't buying it for a moment, but we don't know this was Stride of course) and followed her to her final destination, to sort out some 'unfinished business'. That should work for anyone who really really wants to put the club and Berner St out of bounds to any al fresco sexual activity.

Love,

Caz
X

[Scorpio]

It has been suggested that JtR dressed conspicuosly well to help initiate contact with ladies of the night and to possibly avoid association with the notions of a savage commiting the crimes. I am intriqued by this explanation and it fits very well with
the surly man, as his succesful carousing with Kelly can perhaps testify.

[Ben]

I've never been a fan of that suggestion myself, Scorpio.

A "conspicious" attire was unlikely to have enhanced the killer's chances of procuring a prostitute, and stood a greater chance of being a detriment to them. Firstly, a conspicuous attire was wholly unnecessary since the women could not afford to be choosey with their clients, and secondly, given the fear of the killer that pervaded the district, they were likely to have been more wary than usual of anyone remotely "conspicuous" in demeanour or appearance.

it fits very well with the surly man, as his succesful carousing with Kelly can perhaps testify.

But it doesn't fit at all well with the witness accounts that weren't discredited, such as Lawende's description of a "rough and shabby" individual seen in the company of a woman identified as Kate Eddowes ten minutes prior to the discovery of her body.

All the best,
Ben

[Scorpio]

I've never been a fan of that suggestion myself, Scorpio.

A "conspicious" attire was unlikely to have enhanced the killer's chances of procuring a prostitute, and stood a greater chance of being a detriment to them. Firstly, a conspicuous attire was wholly unnecessary since the women could not afford to be choosey with their clients, and secondly, given the fear of the killer that pervaded the district, they were likely to have been more wary than usual of anyone remotely "conspicuous" in demeanour or appearance.



But it doesn't fit at all well with the witness accounts that weren't discredited, such as Lawende's description of a "rough and shabby" individual seen in the company of a woman identified as Kate Eddowes ten minutes prior to the discovery of her body.

All the best,
Ben

It looks as if Kelly certainly knew the surly man, if his swanky threads were
going to arouse suspicion.

[Rubyretro]

It looks as if Kelly certainly knew the surly man, if his swanky threads were
going to arouse suspicion.

If Kelly knew this 'surly man' with his 'swanky threads' it's certainly strange
that no one else did ! Did he have no job ? No neighbours ? No friends nor
acquaintances -not even a landlord ? No family, nor a maid or visiting tradesmen ? Did he never shop ? Never set foot in a pub or a place of worship -not even walk down the street where he lived ? He was totally
unknown to his neighbourhood Policeman on the beat ?

With his description circulating in all the papers, a vast reward offered,
and a very conspicuous watch and tiepin (taken together, even if you argue that individually neither were very rare), I am very surprised that nobody 'shopped' him ; he must have been a very well loved man ! (not so 'surly' then).

Of course he might only have put his spats on, at night (according to Bob Hinton they were 'day wear') just not to be noticed in grim slum streets..

[Scorpio]

I doubt anyone loved Jack. He was probably a cold associal type who only communicates with others on a need to know basis and was probably a prickly, neurotic type also. No man is an island however, so perhaps someone did shop him, as the police and media recieved lots of " My uncle Bob did it " type letters. If Jack was mindful enough not to prey to close to home, then there is no reason anyone would notice him but those he had associated with,i.e prostitutes.

[Rubyretro]

I doubt anyone loved Jack. He was probably a cold associal type who only communicates with others on a need to know basis and was probably a prickly, neurotic type also. No man is an island however, so perhaps someone did shop him, as the police and media recieved lots of " My uncle Bob did it " type letters. If Jack was mindful enough not to prey to close to home, then there is no reason anyone would notice him but those he had associated with,i.e prostitutes.

Do you think the Police ever read those letters, or just binned the lot without looking ?

''My Uncle Bob owns an astrakhan coat, which he wears with his gold watchchain with a red stone and his horseshoe tiepin. What's more, he's
got a habit of wearing spats at night and is a bit 'foreign' looking and surly..'
What's more is that he's a loner, and rather prickly and neurotic"
Well, maybe the Police wouldn't have bothered to check it out..

Have you looked at the photos of Whitechapel -there is even a film of Petticoat Lane Market (a later date, granted)-and tried to imagine 'nobody noticing' our swanky suspect swanning down the street ?

[Scorpio]

The police would have been wary of concerned citizens accusing every John with a decent set of clothes and a connection to the area. They made exceptions though, questioning a man called Joseph Denny who fit the description. There were doubtless others but Police records are incomplete.

[Scorpio]

I am currently collecting data for a geoprofiling study. The data i require concerns serial criminals ( assault,sexual assault and homicide),travelling on foot in urban areas. If you know of a case that fits this criteria, besides JtR, then let me know please. Thanks.

[Scorpio]

Are there any factors that favour the marauder model?. A common phenomenon amongst sex killers, who's presence has alerted unwanted attention and reactionary measures, is migration. Predatory humans, unlike predatory animals, possess the capacity for hypothetical thought, and the killer, if they are of normal intelligence, might presume that an area with no prior connection to a well known series of crimes will probably possess less preventative measures. Peter Sutcliffe did migrate when the police presence intensified, but JtR ,it seems, did not. Sutcliffe possessed the physical means to increase his range and had developed a working knowledge or mental map of these areas.
Can we surmise that JtR had little mobility and was familiar only with a single,limited, area of East London, and was thus he was compelled to commit crime within it, or cease criminal activity?. This,indeed, would be classic, unsophisticated, maurader behaviour.

[Ben]

Hi Scorpio,

I would say yes, we can surmise as much. As we learn from other serial sex offenders, they tend to operate in the areas they are most familiar with it, and more often that not, this means the place where they live. Their "criminal map" - to borrow a phrase coined by David Canter - is often determined by their transport options. Sutcliffe's was characterized by the ownership of a private vehicle, whereas JTR's was almost certainly limited by a lack of private transport. "Migration" is therefore a less realistic prospect for the latter type of offender.

I would say a number of very telling indicators place him in the "marauder" category.

All the best,
Ben