Bloody Tourists

[Ashkenaz]

To begin with, if the red light districts were really magnetic to him - then what was he doing on Berner Street on the day Liz Stride died?
The best,
Fisherman

Poor Liz was an unfortunate. She was at that location because there was a working mans club there. Many men would need to pass her by to access the club. That is why she was there. She sought a customer on that busy night. She was as likely to find one there as anywhere else. It may be that it was not the best possible place to seek a customer. Perhaps because of this she would likely find fewer competition there. This would have made the place a good spot for a middle aged sex worker.

Jack went there because he was an opportunist. He had likely been to a few pubs hunting that night, and did not find what he sought.

[Ashkenaz]

Does anybody believe that the marauder model, derived from the circle theory of geo profiling, a likely scenario?.

I dont understand the terms Scorpio, but I do like the theory. There are patterns in nature and science, there are also patterns in human behaviour.

I once posted a youtube video about the work of a geo profiler interested in this case. His belief was that Jtr lived in Flower and Dean St, Fashion St or Thrawl St. I think he may be right.

In addition consider this, it is not coincidental that an easily erased chalk message should appear on the night that a murdered womans apron be found beneath it. That message was written by Eddowes killer- Jtr. He was desperately hurrying home. He had murdered two women that night. Both the City Police and The Metro Police were seeking him.

He was heading to the vicinity of the streets mentioned.

Seek out my thread entitled "census" for the video.

[Nothing to see]

Jack lived in the vicinity. He didn't use public transport. He had to be on foot so he had to live locally.

[Fisherman]

Ashkenaz:

"She was at that location because there was a working mans club there. Many men would need to pass her by to access the club."

Yes, Ashkenaz, it was a working "mens" club, but it was also a club to which the working men brought their girlfriends and wifes, making it a perhaps less rewarding hunting ground than you seem to suspect.

"She sought a customer on that busy night."

...and that is patently clear through the fact that she spent a good deal of time with a man in a doorway, kissing, cuddling and strolling down the street, his arm on her shoulder, only to emerge some time later with a flower in her bosom? If that is how you hope to recognize the behaviour of an impoverished prostitute, I´m afraid you are the "unfortunate" one.

"She was as likely to find one there as anywhere else."

No, no and once again no. There has never been a city in which prostitution has been equally distributed all over it. And though Whitechapel was rife with unfortunates, there were streets and district that were common hunting grounds, just as there were streets and districts that were not. That is why we have reports on Buck´s Row, Hanbury Street, Mitre Square and Dorset street all being such particular hunting grounds, whereas we have no such thing when it comes to Berner Street.
That is not to say that a prostitute would decidedly not use it for soliciting. Nor is it to say that Jack would not have gone there looking for prey. But it is to say that both suggestions are less viable here than in the other chosen locations, all of them witnessed about as belonging to the red light areas.

Berner Street remains the one "dislocated" Ripper venue, just as Stride remains the one unripped victim, and just as the time she died remains the only "Ripper killing" perpetrated before the streets had been reasonably emptied of pub visitors and such. To begin with ...

The best,
Fisherman

[jason_c]

I agree with much of what Ben posted earlier in this thread. The killer was likely local(though i can still be persuaded otherwise.)


A few points which suggest this are:

1 There were plenty areas of London where he could pick up prostitutes. He chose Whitechapel again and again.

2 He was likely bloodied after the Chapman killing. Walking around bloodied in daylight hours would have meant a greater chance of being caught.

3 Eddowes' apron was left locally.

[lynn cates]

mind set

Hello Mac.

"one thing we find on a regular basis is that [it] is a mistake to assume a modern mind set when trying to reconstruct the past! You can't think 2010 when trying to understand Whitechapel in 1888!"

Hear, hear! And permit me to include post Peter Kurten discussions of serial killing and blood lusts. Whilst Freudian theorising is right out.

Cheers.
LC

[Ashkenaz]

No, no and once again no. There has never been a city in which prostitution has been equally distributed all over it.

I did not say there was.

The East End was not a city. It is a large area filled with people living at or beneath the poverty line. Prostitution will have occurred throughout the East End, not exclusively in the few areas you mention, although it will have been more obvious in some places, probably high street areas and certain pubs acting as pick up spots.

That is not to say that a prostitute would decidedly not use it for soliciting. Nor is it to say that Jack would not have gone there looking for prey. But it is to say that both suggestions are less viable here than in the other chosen locations, all of them witnessed about as belonging to the red light areas.

At the time of the Stride murder women would have become increasing worried and apprehensive. Perhaps Liz tried Berner St as previous murders had been in locations you list. Maybe Berner St seemed a safer spot. But Berner St is still in the hunting ground because its where the poor live. Jtr was probably just following where his victims plied their trade- away from the likeliest places to be victimised as they thought.

Berner Street remains the one "dislocated" Ripper venue, just as Stride remains the one unripped victim, and just as the time she died remains the only "Ripper killing" perpetrated before the streets had been reasonably emptied of pub visitors and such. To begin with ...

The best,
Fisherman[/QUOTE]

Of course there were some dissimilarities. Women were avoiding him as best as they could. They likely avoided previous scenes of crime as best as they could. Liz seems to have chosen a time to solicit, which was before pubs emptied and not the small hours. The only reason he did not eviserate his victim was because he heard someone coming. I believe this is just another of his murders.

[Fisherman]

Ashkenaz:

"it will have been more obvious in some places"

...which is exactly why your assertion that it would be as easy to fins a punter in Berner Street as anywhere else does not apply. It was quite clearly witnessed by many sources that Berner Street was NOT an ordinary place to solicit.

"Perhaps Liz tried Berner St as previous murders had been in locations you list. Maybe Berner St seemed a safer spot."

It´s a thought, Ashkenaz - but I think that those who wanted to stay away from the Ripper first and foremost should stay away from the trade as such. Finding "safer" grounds would equal confusing those who looked for street girls. If you take a look at comparisons from our time, the girls will stay on the trading streets in spite of their fear. Look at Sutcliffe - same streets throughout. Hansen, Ridgway - same streets throughout. The market rules in this issue, I´m afraid.

"Liz seems to have chosen a time to solicit, which was before pubs emptied and not the small hours."

That sounds a lot more plausible to my ears - but for the soliciting part. The testimony rules against it, methinks.

The best,
Fisherman

[Ashkenaz]

At any rate, my own guess is that he did not kill Stride
Fisherman

Do you really believe, that two killers, whose MO both happened to involve throat slashing, just happened to decide to go out and kill, not just on the very same day, but also within one half hour of each other ?

If this were the case, I must suspect collusion.

[Ashkenaz]

It was quite clearly witnessed by many sources that Berner Street was NOT an ordinary place to solicit.

It might not have been a usual spot for solicitation, but it is in the East End. Expect prostitution where you find extreme poverty - like the East End in Victorian London.

I think that those who wanted to stay away from the Ripper first and foremost should stay away from the trade as such.

This is no solution for a woman with children whose husband had died or deserted her. She must have food and shelter.

Look at Sutcliffe - same streets throughout. Hansen, Ridgway - same streets throughout. The market rules in this issue, I´m afraid.

A difference indeed. Likely best explained by the passage of 100+ years. The past is another world. They do things differently there.

[Errata]

Hi Errata,

Look at the map. All the murder sites were just off the main roads where the killer could have picked up, or been picked up by each victim - and pretty much in a straight line from those roads too.

Unless he was blind, had his eyes closed or had an even worse sense of direction than me, he'd have been back on the nearest main road and away in seconds, if he wasn't already familiar with 'unfortunate' territory.

I suspect he had always used such women for rough sex before graduating to more violence and eventually nothing but the violence. The only difference in 1888 was that the woman didn't always walk away from the encounter.

Love,

Caz
X

Well this is just a "what-if" but taken from my own experience. I live about 100 yds from one of the busiest streets in town. When I give directions to people coming to my house, or if someone is following, I never mention the major road. For one reason. It is so busy that it would take about an hour to turn left onto my street. I direct people onto a series of three or four side streets. Its the fastest and safest way. Our downtown in similar. Sure you can navigate there through the major streets, but the alleys and back streets are faster and more direct. If you don't live here, you will get lost.

So I sort of picture women taking a customer to a location through the alleys and yards. Cops are on major streets, they don't want to get caught. It may be faster to cut through and between buildings. So a location may have a major street on the other side of the building, but if you didn't use the street to get there, the only way you know it's there is if you have local knowledge. And if you don't know it's there, you have to retrace you steps which is less than optimal.

I don't think you have to live there to do this, But I don't think for example an American fresh off the boat could do it either. I think you would have to have walked those streets many times, and of course be able to blend in.

[Pinkerton]

The "marauder" theory as you refer to it is really just common sense when you think about, even though it may have been arrived at with "data sets" and "mathematical models". Kill and get to shelter QUICKLY! And it helps if you know the location you are committing the crime in!

In the case of JTR, you have just murdered someone, and in some cases even removed clothing or "parts" from the body. And someone will literally find the body of the victim in just a matter of MINUTES. Are you REALLY going to walk three of four miles before you find shelter? You are going to want to get off the streets QUICKLY. So either you only have to walk a short distance (you are a "local") or you have a horse and cart a short distance away (however in this case not AT the scene since no witness reported hearing a horse and cart near the immediate scene). If the latter were the case I would think JTR would have parked it a few blocks away from the murder locations off one of the main roads. The cart would be COVERED with perhaps a change of clothing inside.

However I find the "local man" theory more plausible. The Ghoulston Street apron suggests more than a couple of blocks of walking was involved. And I'm not so sure that a "cart" driving in the middle of the night wouldn't be subject to being stopped just the same as a pedestrian.

I will say though that I think the Torso killer most certainly had a horse and cart (or at least a costermonger's cart). Are you going to walk two or three miles carrying a woman's body on your person? I think not! Although there are days when I think the two killers are one and the same...

... and by the way Whitechapel was NOT a red light district any more then anywhere else from what I can tell. I've read through hundreds of cases of prostitution in London during the LVP. Spitalfields was more so than Whitechapel because of all the cheap lodging houses. However prostitution seems to have been just as rampant in places like Lambeth, the Strand, and the entire "docks" area as far as I can tell (southern part of St. George in the East, Poplar, Limehouse, etc.). Sailors back from abroad who just got paid made attractive clients!

[Fisherman]

Ashkenaz:

"It might not have been a usual spot for solicitation, but it is in the East End. Expect prostitution where you find extreme poverty - like the East End in Victorian London."


... and therein lies the rub, Ashkenaz: people who wanted sex for money went to the places where it could be expected to be on sale. Berner Street was not one such place.
The East end on the whole was and remains huge, and there were places in it that were decidedly more or decidedly less prostitutional.
I think I have already made the point that there was no specific prohibition attached to Berner Street, and therefore anybody who wishes to reason thusly, may throw forward the suggestion that the occasional prostitute may have found her way there. I have nothing against such a suggestion as long as one reads up on the existing material and take part of the information that Berner Street was in all probability a less reasonable suggestion for the needy gentleman on the look for a few minutes pleasure! Ergo - if we make the assumption that the Ripper was a killer with a fascination for the red light districts, prowling the prostitution streets of Whitechapel, then Berner Street would not be one of the streets he would reasonably pay a visit.
If my efforts to explain all of this to you are in complete vain, so be it.

"This is no solution for a woman with children whose husband had died or deserted her. She must have food and shelter."

Bravo! So she takes to prostitution! Quite reasonable a suggestion! And she logically opts for plying her trade on a street where punters do normally not come!
Now, wait a minute ... there´s something wrong here ...

"A difference indeed. Likely best explained by the passage of 100+ years. The past is another world. They do things differently there."

Actually, Ashkenaz, the main difference is that today´s prostitutes would have had a far better opportunity to choose other streets, than the unfortunates of Whitechapel. Cars, buses, trains - you get the picture! But that did not matter in the cases I mentioned, did it? And why? Exactly, because prostitutes ply their trade in places well known to punters. T´was always thus, and thus t´will always be - up to the point when we need to cram Jack the Ripper into a frame in which he does not fit, that is ...

The best,
Fisherman

[Monty]

Fisherman,

Ashkenaz has a valid point. Not only do we have Stride seemingly soliciting outside a club but we also have Eddowes seemingly soliciting outside the Imperial club. Levys comment suggest that he knew exactly what the couple were up to.

The 'red light district' in the East end tradtionally runs from the docks and Berner street is not that far away.

Monty

[Rubyretro]

I'd have thought that one of the main reasons for a very poor prostitute (ie one that didn't have the privacy of her own room) to choose a good spot to solicite, would be that there was a dark and private spot to take clients within a very short walking time; and of course a 'good spot' is where there is a good availability of clients in proximity.

Effectively , it was very different in the past, since now (in France at least), the poorest prostitutes sit in vans on the carpark, where their customers
can park up in proximity and then climb in the back of the van ). Or they stand by busy country roads used by Lorry drivers, and have either a van or a tent off the road in bushes. Liz didn't have this option of course.

Although Dutfield's Yard might seem very 'public' to us, we have to remember that the lighting level was very different then. Also that Liz apparently knew a spot shielded by the gates, and up against the wall (so invisible to anyone looking out of the window). It was also a spot mainly passed by men -and rough working class area (I don't supposed that they'd be shocked by a prostitute).

Earlier in the evening, in Berner Street, there was a pub clientele. Pubs were very different then -'respectable' women wouldn't go drinking in them. I don't know anything about the history of 'pub culture' -but I do know that my English girlfriends in their late '50s tell me that they were really the first generation of female pub habituees.
I remember very old pubs having a snug, a saloon bar, etc and an interconnecting bar counter but seperate entrances and rooms for men and women /couples.
So , I think that Pubs in 1888 can be assured of having a vast majority of male customers -with some women like Liz Stride (and the other Ripper victims).

Given that 'Sex' was not freely available to Victorian men -at least if they didn't pay for it, or have the means to marry (and many men in the area had very 'casual' jobs and lived in doss houses ), a woman like Liz in the pub would surely spur them on, because she was obviously 'available' to them. Liz was 'known' as a professional
prostitute, she was probably 'practised' in appealing to men...and the mean's to consummate their excitation (the close proximity of Dutfield's Yard) must have brought her lots of business opportunites.

However the pub closed relatively early for Liz -maybe she slept alot in the day- but there was always the 'second wave' of customers coming from the Club. Granted, women could go to the club -but how many did ? Wouldn't they leave after the ' meeting' and leave the blokes to smoke and sing etc (as 'posh' Victorian women left the table when the 'Port and cigars came out ?). I think Liz might rely on having some customers !

I can imagine that 'some time ' prostitutes like Eddowes would head to St Botolphes where they could be sure to get a customer (the deal was clear), but 'professionals' like Liz, would know a regular spot with lots of opportunity but less competition, and bit off the beaten track.

For the rest, I agree with Ben and Ashkenaz..so I won't repeat them..