Bloody Tourists

[Fisherman]

Sounds like the typical setup for any major city, Errata! The same would have applied to the East end - major prostitution meetingpoints would have spilled out some business to the adjacent streets. Itīs, I guess, to some extent related to troutfishing - where the most food is to be had, due to streams and such, is where the most and biggest trout will be found. The slightly smaller fish will have to settle for poorer places.

...only in Strideīs case, Berner Street is not reported to be one such street. It is spoken of as a street where it would be exceptional to find prostitution.

And true enough, there are spots in all trout rivers where you may spend hours on end without any sort of fish contact. Then again, some sunny day, the occasional fish may be there, either because of the pressure from the bigger fish, or because it is migrating along the river, looking for a good spot to be. To me, thatīs Berner Street in a nutshell.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

This all is a wormīs nest, for sure. Just to point at some of the difficulties involved, we may take a look at the book "The cases that haunt us", by John Douglas and Mark Olshaker. In it, they mention Edward Spooner, and they say that when the club members who were looking for a police found him, he was standing outside the Beehive public house with a woman who was "probably a prostitute".

Now, letīs take a look at the inquest report, as displayed in the Times. It says:
"Between half-past 12 and 1 o'clock on Sunday morning I was standing outside the Bee Hive publichouse, at the corner of Christian-street and Fairclough-street, along with a young woman. I had previously been in another beershop at the top of the street, and afterwards walked down."

So, nothing is mentioned about the womanīs character, but it would seem they were only lossely aquaintaned. Maybe Douglas and Olshaker got it right.

Moving on to the Daily Telegraphs inquest recordings, this is the picture we are served:
"On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman. We had left a public- house in Commercial-road at closing time, midnight, and walked quietly to the point named. We stood outside the Beehive about twenty-five minutes, when two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police."

Hello? Suddenly it is not "a" young woman, but instead "his" young woman. And THEY, not him, had left a pub together earlier in the evening. Moreover, they had spent twenty-five minutes talking outside the Beehive as the clubbers came a-running. And whatever a prostitute normally does, it does not involve half-hour long chats with punters - time is money to a prostitute.

So maybe Douglas and Olshaker, poor devils, got it wrong? Any which way, one of the reporters did, thatīs for sure!

The best,
Fisherman

[Rubyretro]

I've been reading back over this thread and I no longer see what we're arguing over..I think that we all agree on the fact that there were some
Prostitutes , but not as many as in other areas.

I think that my offer/demand arguement was good : as long as the two balance out, it doesn't matter how many prostitutes were working the street
does it.

which brings us back to the original question of whether 'Jack' was a 'tourist'
or a local -and I think local, if the area was not so well known for prostitutes.

Personally, I don't think it was the prostitutes per se which attracted him to Berner Street -I think that it was the Club.

[Scorpio]

Hi, i am beginning to think that i should have avoided the word " Tourist ".
Perhaps the term " casual visitor " would be more appropriate. I can see the results of someone building a mental map, becoming familiar and confident, or street wise, but i do not believe that someone had to be based in the midst of the crimes for this to be possible.A local boy paradigm will deter good alternative suspects from being examined, and that is unfortunate.
Scorpio

[Errata]

which brings us back to the original question of whether 'Jack' was a 'tourist'
or a local -and I think local, if the area was not so well known for prostitutes.

Yeah. It would be astonishingly bad luck if he was in transit, and she was in transit, and they just happened to cross paths on the one street he had the least chance of finding someone. On the other hand, clearly her luck wasn't in that night, so I suppose it's possible.

[Fisherman]

Errata:

"It would be astonishingly bad luck if he was in transit, and she was in transit, and they just happened to cross paths on the one street he had the least chance of finding someone."

Bingo!

"On the other hand, clearly her luck wasn't in that night, so I suppose it's possible."

And again!

The best,
Fisherman

[Rubyretro]

.A local boy paradigm will deter good alternative suspects from being examined, and that is unfortunate.
Scorpio

[/QUOTE]

I think that suspects like Druitt, Maybrick, Prince Albert Victor, Blanchard,
Lewis Carrol (!), Sir William Gull, etc weren't local boys, so 'casual visitors' have always been considered.

[Rubyretro]

I think that suspects like Druitt, Maybrick, Prince Albert Victor, Blanchard,
Lewis Carrol (!), Sir William Gull, etc weren't local boys, so 'casual visitors' have always been considered. Druitt was a favourite suspect.

[Fisherman]

Ruby:

"I think that we all agree on the fact that there were some
Prostitutes , but not as many as in other areas."

That depends on whether we see the question over time, or if we speak of the general perspective on any given night.

If the first applies, we are indeed in agreement. A picture of Berner Street as attracting the odd prostitute now and then, trying to look for new opportunities and break new ground, tallies very well with what the coroner deduced - that it would be exceptional to find prostitution there. Something, if you like, out of the ordinary.

If you opt for the second choice, that there was always prostitution to be had in Berner Street, albeit in low concentrations ( a girl or two), then I disagree. This is not in accordance with what was said at the inquest, regardless if we listen to the clubbers, PC Smith or the coroner.

...and I really believe that this is crucial to our understanding of the odds that Stride would have gone there for soliciting purposes, as well as the odds that Berner Street would have been incorporated with Jacks hunting grounds.

... and that, I suspect, is how far we are going to get.

The best,
Fisherman

[Rubyretro]

... and that, I suspect, is how far we are going to get.

The best,
Fisherman

[/QUOTE]
We can agree on that !

However, maybe JtR, local boy or otherwise, didn't choose the Berner Street site because of the number of prostitutes there, but because of the club meeting ?

The fact that both Liz and Kate were both killed, on the same night, in the vicinty of jewish club meetings might just be a coincidence, but taken together with the GSG, then that makes 3 coincidences and APPEARS to link 'the Double Event'.

I can never make up my mind whether JtR came along just after BSM's 'attack', whether he was BSM, or whether he was with BSM but standing just out of sight in the yard ? There is such a small time lag, that JtR had to be nearby when Schwartz went past. I can't believe that he was BSM, because it doesn't fit with 'sneaky, silent Jack's' MO. I will plump for the idea that he was with him and Pipeman.

AS I think that Pipeman and BSM were outside the club to 'make trouble', that would mean that JtR wanted to 'make trouble' for Club member's too. So I was very interested to read about the'memories' of Nathan Shine :
sassienie.community.officelive.com/default.aspx Nathan Shine

Quotes : "Nathan Shine told of his experience to his parents but the episode was not mentioned again for many years, as for fears of reprisals, either from the murderer or from anti Semitic gangs".
I don't believe anything about Nathan Shine's 'experience' -it's clearly a 'version' of Schwartz's statement- but his supposed reason for not coming forward at the inquest DOES interest Me. Why would he be afraid of reprisals from'anti-semitic gangs', if he didn't immediately associate the description of BSM with such a gang member ?

He was also coming from a 'Working Man's Club' on Commercial Street at the time of the killings -had he been hassled by such gangs there ? Where was this club on Commercial Street ? What time did the meeting end ? Is this where our killer was coming from -and where he had lacked opportunity to kill ? Is the short distance between Clubs the reason why he turned into Berner Street -despite there being fewer Prostitutes there ?

I agree with Errata that 'bad character' might not mean Prostitutes, but violence..and this is what another neighbour had to say about Dutfield's Yard:
I heard the commotion when the body was found, and heard the policemen's whistles, but did not take any notice of the matter, as disturbances are very frequent at the club, and I thought it was only another row.
Charles Letchford (a neighbour)

Were they rows between Club members, or rows between members and 'trouble makers' from outside ?

Lots of Question Marks !

By the way, Fish, you haven't participated in the Dear Boss thread ?

[Fisherman]

Ruby:

"The fact that both Liz and Kate were both killed, on the same night, in the vicinty of jewish club meetings might just be a coincidence, but taken together with the GSG, then that makes 3 coincidences and APPEARS to link 'the Double Event'."

Many would agree with you on that, Ruby. Not me, though. I always thought that if a killer in Whitechapel was to stay free from any geograhical implication of the jews, he would have to refrain from killing on the whole.

"I can never make up my mind whether JtR came along just after BSM's 'attack', whether he was BSM, or whether he was with BSM but standing just out of sight in the yard ? There is such a small time lag, that JtR had to be nearby when Schwartz went past. I can't believe that he was BSM, because it doesn't fit with 'sneaky, silent Jack's' MO. I will plump for the idea that he was with him and Pipeman."

Well, since you must bring Jack on stage, and since he must be a sneaky, stealthy type, youīre in for trouble here, Ruby, Me, I take the lazy way out: I recognize that a man was involved in some sort of physical brawl with Stride minutes before she met her death, and then I take it from there.

"I agree with Errata that 'bad character' might not mean Prostitutes, but violence.."

So do I. And I would add loud quarelling to the list of possibilities.

"Were they rows between Club members, or rows between members and 'trouble makers' from outside?"

Short answer: yes.

"By the way, Fish, you haven't participated in the Dear Boss thread?"

I can only spare so much time, Ruby. But I do take the occasional peak, admittedly.

The best,
Fisherman

[Scorpio]

Just A Thought

Has anyone proposed a pre Nov 9 relationship between MJK and JtR ?. As you know, if you have followed this link, i am certain that Jack was reasonably familiar,if not well known in the area and a casual relationship between MJK and JtR, more than any other suspect, appeals to me. Know, I have faith in George Hutchinson, and his statement suggests a loose acquaintance to my mind;Did Kelly's laugh signify recognition when the surly man touched her shoulder? and did the surly man not seem curiously aware that Kelly had a room close by ?.
Scorpio

[Ben]

Hi Scorpio,

I wouldn't have too much faith in Hutchinson. The indications are strong that his account was discredited by the police as early as mid-November, and that the "surly man" was not considered a credible candidate for the ripper. That said, it is entirely possible that the killer was acquainted with one or more of his victims. This isn't so unusual amongst prostitute serial killers; Stephen Wright and Gary Ridgeway both knew at least one of their victims.

Best regards,
Ben

[Rubyretro]

Scorpio : I have yet to read Bob Hinton's book (I got confirmation from Amazon that it's due to be delivered at the end of the month), but I believe that he suggested such a thing ?

I do think that the Kelly murder is very different to the other murders (not because it was indoors, but it was the point that 'Jack' stopped although he had finally got free reign with his fantasies.

I do think that Kelly and JtR knew each other, yes, (for one thing, I think that he knew that she lived alone, and Barnett had moved out) -but it's not 'written in stone'.

[Errata]

I agree with Errata that 'bad character' might not mean Prostitutes, but violence..and this is what another neighbour had to say about Dutfield's Yard:
I heard the commotion when the body was found, and heard the policemen's whistles, but did not take any notice of the matter, as disturbances are very frequent at the club, and I thought it was only another row.
Charles Letchford (a neighbour)
[/QUOTE]

If there is one thing I can personally attest to it is that Jewish radicals/communists argue constantly and loudly. And with much shaking of papers in each others faces (family reunions are trip). I would be surprised however if they did it in English. At that time Yiddish would have been the common language all Jews shared. It would be interesting to know whether or not the arguments were in English or not. Yiddish might indicate the expected pitfalls of living near a radical meeting house. English might indicate criminal activity common in the area. It's moot either way in the case of Liz Stride, but might be useful in establishing the "flavor" (if you will) of the neighborhood.