Bloody Tourists

[Monty]

St Botolphs Ruby?

Why?

Monty

[Fisherman]

Monty:

"Ashkenaz has a valid point. Not only do we have Stride seemingly soliciting outside a club but we also have Eddowes seemingly soliciting outside the Imperial club. Levys comment suggest that he knew exactly what the couple were up to.
The 'red light district' in the East end tradtionally runs from the docks and Berner street is not that far away."

I´m sorry, Monty, but exactly how does Eddowes probable soliciting in Duke Street prove that Stride was soliciting in Berner Street? I´m sure you are saying something quite relevant here - you very often do - but if you are, I´m not catching on. Maybe you could take it one step further?

You also write that Berner Street was not far away from the red light district, and that is of course true. But by wording it the way you do, you also corroborate what I have been saying all the time, since though it was not far away, it was away!
And though you do not specify what point of Ashkenazy´s it is you believe to be valid, it would not be the point that finding punters on Berner Street would be just as easy as it would be to find it in places that were not "away" at all. And that is all I am saying. Putting it differently, if we had the other four "canonical" deeds on record, but not the Stride deed, and were asked to name fifty streets where we thought it reasonable to expect Jack´s next killing, I strongly suspect that neither me nor you would have named Berner Street.
Lastly, lets not forget that it takes two to tango - not only do we need to accept that Stride chose Berner Street for soliciting, in spite of logically lesser chances of hitting it off with a John, we also need to accept that Jack chose Berner Street for killing, in spite of logically lesser chances to find an unfortunate.
This all of course relates to the idea that Jack was looking for prostitutes, something that remains totally unproven. But if he did, Berner Street was his least rational choice.
Once again, I am not saying that Ashkenaz must be wrong - he could be completely right. But I am saying that we need to add the insight that the different killing spots offer differing levels of credibility to have been unfortunate and unfortunate killer magnets.

Now, what was that about Eddowes and Levy ...??

The best,
Fisherman

[Nothing to see]

Why would anyone think that Berner St wouldn't be patronised by pros? It had its share of pubs. Jack was taken to the murder scenes by the victims themselves. So either Stride knew that Dutfield's Yard was a good spot and entry was available through the small gate door, or it was just a stroke of good luck.

Myself, I think she knew exactly where she was going because she'd used the place before. I'd never thought about Eddowes soliciting outside the Imperial Club but it makes perfect sense. She would have known where to take the punter in Mitre Square. There were 2 gaslights in the square and she and Jack were out of sight of both of them.

Apparently, respectable women drank outside the pub, on the pavement, placing their drinks on the window sill. I'm not saying the victims did that. But apparently, that was what happened.

[Monty]

Fisherman

"Ashkenaz has a valid point. Not only do we have Stride seemingly soliciting outside a club but we also have Eddowes seemingly soliciting outside the Imperial club. Levys comment suggest that he knew exactly what the couple were up to.
The 'red light district' in the East end tradtionally runs from the docks and Berner street is not that far away."

I´m sorry, Monty, but exactly how does Eddowes probable soliciting in Duke Street prove that Stride was soliciting in Berner Street? I´m sure you are saying something quite relevant here - you very often do - but if you are, I´m not catching on. Maybe you could take it one step further?

No, the point is is that Stride wasnt soliciting Berner Street specifically but rather she was soliciting outside the club. Witness testimony has her pinned to that specific area. Eddowes was seen in a simliar position in Duke Street.

Here is the inquest testimony which indicates that Berner st and that corner was used at times to solicit, apart from Louis....well he is entitled to defend his club right?

Coroner - Do low women frequent Berner-street?
Wess - I have seen men and women standing about and talking to each other in Fairclough-street.

Coroner - But have you observed them nearer the club?
Wess- No.

Coroner- Or in the club yard?
Wess- I did once, at eleven o'clock at night, about a year ago. They were chatting near the gates. That is the only time I have noticed such a thing, nor have I heard of it.

Eagle states:-

Coroner - And you have never seen a man and woman there? (in reference to the yard)
Eagle- No, not in the yard; but I have close by, outside the beershop, at the corner of Fairclough-street.

Diemshitz states :-

Coroner - Have you ever seen men and women together in the yard?
Diemshitz- Never.

Coroner -Nor heard of such a thing?
Diemshitz- No.

Make of those what you will.

You also write that Berner Street was not far away from the red light district, and that is of course true. But by wording it the way you do, you also corroborate what I have been saying all the time, since though it was not far away, it was away!
And though you do not specify what point of Ashkenazy´s it is you believe to be valid, it would not be the point that finding punters on Berner Street would be just as easy as it would be to find it in places that were not "away" at all. And that is all I am saying. Putting it differently, if we had the other four "canonical" deeds on record, but not the Stride deed, and were asked to name fifty streets where we thought it reasonable to expect Jack´s next killing, I strongly suspect that neither me nor you would have named Berner Street.

I agree.

Lastly, lets not forget that it takes two to tango - not only do we need to accept that Stride chose Berner Street for soliciting, in spite of logically lesser chances of hitting it off with a John, we also need to accept that Jack chose Berner Street for killing, in spite of logically lesser chances to find an unfortunate.

This is based on the assumption Jack trolled as opposed to being opportunistic, yes? There are many varying factors that need to be taken on board before striking a most probable solution. He may not have chosen, he may have taken advantage....if indeed it was him.

Also, Stride may have been fully experienced in Berner st, again its one of those things we will never know.

This all of course relates to the idea that Jack was looking for prostitutes, something that remains totally unproven. But if he did, Berner Street was his least rational choice.

Not if he knew the area. See the witness statement I posted...they were aware.

Once again, I am not saying that Ashkenaz must be wrong - he could be completely right. But I am saying that we need to add the insight that the different killing spots offer differing levels of credibility to have been unfortunate and unfortunate killer magnets.

True, however that is not to say they should be dismissed out of hand.

Now, what was that about Eddowes and Levy ...??

Levy was fully aware of what the couple in Church Passage were up to.


Monty

[Rubyretro]

We could try thinking of Liz and Catherine as practising a commerce, since prostitution IS a commerce. I'm going to compare them to Market traders (because in my various careers, I once worked the Markets for a couple of years).

Anyone thinking of trying their hand at Markets round this way, immediately thinks of pitching their wares on one of the big, well known, busy markets which attract alot of Tourists (because they have heard about them). They imagine that they will make more money on this type of Market because they will have more potential customers, and those customers have come especially to spend money.

I will compare St Botolphs Church as being like one of these Tourist Markets. St Botolphs was known as the Prostitute's Church because the prostitutes could circle it, without having to stand still and be picked up for soliciting. The intentions
of the women circling it would be clear to men looking to buy sex, and 'tourists' would surely go to such a spot if they were looking for a prostitute, because they had heard of its reputation and could be sure of finding what they wanted.

There are two big problems with this type of Market though: The first is competition, and the second is the attitude of the most established traders, who have been coming for the longest time. There is only so much money to be spent and it has to be shared amongst all the traders, and when there is too much 'offer' for the 'demand', it is very difficult to make the money you
need. Therefore the established Traders hate the 'newbies' or amateurs, who drive prices down and 'steal' their trade, and they actively try to discourage them. I bet the hard bitten 'established' prostitutes at St Botolphs did not welcome 'some time' prostitutes (like Eddowes) with open arms.

Still, comparing to Markets, the Grail for alot of traders therefore becomes to develop their own market, by going a bit off the beaten track and finding something small but with a good potential clientele. There may be a lot less people, but there is no, or a lot less competition. If the customers are local, it is also a more stable clientele than the tourist one. The thing is only that the demand balances the offer (or joy ! outweighs it).

Therefore, that Liz Stride, being an experienced Prostitute (trader), would develop her own pitch between the pub/club and Dutfield's Yard, makes perfect sense to Me. It also points to Jtr being a local and not a tourist.

Monty -I only mentioned St Botolphs in the same breath as Catherine, because Mitre Square is a very short walk from the
Church. If one of the criteria for these Prostitutes was the need for some quiet dark spots to take their Johns, it stands to reason that they would probably use Mitre Square for that purpose (and no doubt other spots around the vicinity).
On the night that she died, Eddowes had been most likely drinking her hop money, and appears to have been apprehensive of going home to Kelly -I would guess because she no longer had that money. She seems to have left the Police Station and headed off in the general direction of St Botolphs (not having a good little pitch like Liz) with the intention of soliciting and making some of that money back. However, she went directly to Mitre Square (?), because it was Club Night, and she hoped to get customers there.

[Fisherman]

Nothing to see writes:

"either Stride knew that Dutfield's Yard was a good spot and entry was available through the small gate door, or it was just a stroke of good luck."

... or she was not soliciting at all. You seem to have forgotten that option.

You also seem to have forgotten that the side door to the IWMEC opened up into Dutfield´s yard. And that would have made it a terrible choice of venue for a prostitute, since the men and the women of the club were coming and going in a never ceasing stream. That would have made many a punter intermittently impotent, and it would have been decidedly bad for business. Just about any doorway leading in to tenement buildings and any back yard behind them would have made far better choices, guaranteeing incredibly better chances of being left alone.

"Why would anyone think that Berner St wouldn't be patronised by pros? It had its share of pubs."

Let´s not oversimplify things here. Even today, London has thousands and thousands of pubs. Back in 1888, they were thirteen a dozen. Virtually every street had pubs on them, and if they did not, all you had to do was to turn the corner to find one.
Apparently, though, not all streets were street rife with prostitution, while others were. The inevitable conclusion is that the rate of prostitution was not governed by the presence of pubs alone. It would perhaps be wiser to say that prostitution would not very likely concentrate on publess streets, but to believe that any street that offered a pub was a street that also offered prostitution? No.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Hi Monty!

You list a few examples of club members speaking of possible cases of prostitution occuring in Fairclough Street, and an occurence, witnessed about by Wess, when a man and a woman were "chatting" at Dutfield´s yard. Apparently, Wess had it down as business, but let´s not forget that he may actually have been wrong. But I am having no problem believing that he may have been right too. Please note that I am not saying that there was never any case of prostitution in Berner Street! The unfortunates would reasonably have seeked out as many potential market places as possible, and customers heading for the more obvious hunting grounds may of course have passed through many an "innocent" street, thus giving rise to the occasional affair. That is only reasonable to suggest.
But when you list these bits and pieces of yours, Monty, it´s only fair to stress that the meeting at the yard Wess spoke of had occurred a full year before the Stride killing. And let´s not forget that you leave out the fact that a witness that was in no way in need to lie about it all, PC Smith, noted when speaking of Berner Street: "very few prostitutes were to be seen there". His voice remains the perhaps best source!
Adding it all up, we get a picture of Berner Street where prostitution may have occurred - but it would have been something very much out of the ordinary. Therefore we cannot rule out Stride having solicited there on the evening in question, we cannot rule out Jack having opted for Berner Street in search of a prostitute to kill - but we must realize that it is a scenario that swears against the overall picture painted by witnesses and the policeman knit to the street.

"This is based on the assumption Jack trolled as opposed to being opportunistic, yes? There are many varying factors that need to be taken on board before striking a most probable solution. He may not have chosen, he may have taken advantage....if indeed it was him."

Couldn´t have agreed more, Monty. But since this thread is about a commuting killer, it is reasonable to work threadwise with an assumption that he was trolling. Whether true or not is another question, just like you say.

"that is not to say they should be dismissed out of hand"

Phew!! When did I do that? I have, over and over again, said that the soliciting scenario may hold true. I have never said that Jack could not have been there, and done the cutting. I am merely pointing out that there are some serious flaws connected with making the assumption that Berner Street belonged to the normal hunting grounds for a prostitute stalker. And that is a wiew I see no reason whatsoever to change.

"Levy was fully aware of what the couple in Church Passage were up to."

Levy was fully aware of what he THOUGHT the couple were up to. And he was probably completely right. But that has very little bearing on the Stride case, not least because the recorded events from Berner Street speaks of something else than Stride turning quick tricks. Plus, mind you, she was doing it in a street where there was normally no prosti ...

Sorry ´bout that!

the best,
Fisherman

[Rubyretro]

Fish -I doubt that the club members were going in and out in a never ending stream.
When the speakers were giving their talks, surely everyone who had come to see them would be inside listening ? I can't imagine that the club wouldn't have rules -it would be impossible for the meeting to be 'serious' with streams of people coming in and out.

I also doubt (although I wouldn't know) that there were very many women
in the club. I strongly suspect that there were many more men than women.

It was very late when Liz was killed, and I've already pointed out that it was very 'Victorian' for the women to 'retire' and leave the men to drink and smoke ?
I would guess that after all the 'speakers' had finished, people left the club in
a very short time span, and those left, stayed for a spot of carousing.
I don't suppose more people arrived, and the others probably left in dribs and drabs.

Liz did use a spot behind the gates, and it was too close to the wall to be seen by anyone glancing out of the club window. It must have been very dark inside the yard, and a spot not clearly visible from the street.

I also think that these men and prostitutes were obliged to have sex outside,
and so the privacy issue was something that they were obliged to 'deal with' and also it would not shock passers by so much to see vague shapes and hear noises in the darkness. I bet you that a man leaving the club would just avert his eyes and quickly scurry past.

I don't think that just any pub would do for soliciting..but one with a dark
courtyard in proximity, and a club full of potential customers after the pub closed would have a big 'plus'.

[Fisherman]

Rubyretro:

"Fish -I doubt that the club members were going in and out in a never ending stream."

Then read the inquest testimony, Ruby. You will find that people walked their girlfriends home, arrived with pony carts, came and left ... that is what happens when you have a whole heap of people crammed into a bustling club. They don´t arrive at six o clock, close the doors, and allow nobody out before two in the morning.

"it would be impossible for the meeting to be 'serious' with streams of people coming in and out"

How serious do you reckon it was, with people singing their hearts out?

"I also doubt (although I wouldn't know) that there were very many women
in the club. I strongly suspect that there were many more men than women."

All we actually know is that two out of the three clubbers that witnessed at the inquest had their women there. That says something.

"the others probably left in dribs and drabs."

Would that not swear against your suggestion that there was never a stream of people going in and out?

The best,
Fisherman

[Rubyretro]

Witnesses at the inquest :
Morris Eagle was a members of the International Working MEN'S educational club.
He opened the discussion and occupied the Chair (so before the singing there was a serious debate). He effectively took his 'young lady' home after the debate..leaving by the front door. I imagine that if the front door was open, then that is how the ladies left. It is most probably how the members arrived. When he came back -I suppose for the carousing singing bit, he had to use the side door, but described the yard as being 'very dark'..too dark to see if a body was there.

I suggest that comings and goings were by the front door up until about midnight..so the yard was even quieter than I thought. Not all the men would have left after the debate, and not all the men would have returned, using the side door.

(I'm reading the other witnesses, with great interest -thank you- but I have to go to work in a minute).

Barnet Kentorresh (a neighbour) "I do not think that the yard bears a very good character at night"

'Isaac M Kozebrodski' came in to the Club at about 6.30pm and was called out about 1.15 am -no mention of a woman and no coming and going for him.

[Monty]

Fisherman

You list a few examples of club members speaking of possible cases of prostitution occuring in Fairclough Street, and an occurence, witnessed about by Wess, when a man and a woman were "chatting" at Dutfield´s yard. Apparently, Wess had it down as business, but let´s not forget that he may actually have been wrong. But I am having no problem believing that he may have been right too. Please note that I am not saying that there was never any case of prostitution in Berner Street! The unfortunates would reasonably have seeked out as many potential market places as possible, and customers heading for the more obvious hunting grounds may of course have passed through many an "innocent" street, thus giving rise to the occasional affair. That is only reasonable to suggest.

He may have been wrong indeed, however the Coroner was clear in his question, referring to women of ‘low class’. Wess seemingly understood this and responded in kind. There is always a counter true.

But when you list these bits and pieces of yours, Monty, it´s only fair to stress that the meeting at the yard Wess spoke of had occurred a full year before the Stride killing. And let´s not forget that you leave out the fact that a witness that was in no way in need to lie about it all, PC Smith, noted when speaking of Berner Street: "very few prostitutes were to be seen there". His voice remains the perhaps best source!

I do not like the implication that Im being intentionally selective here Fisherman, a friendly warning has been fired. However, yes, Wess states this was a year before. It still happened never the less, and the idea that prostitutes did walk the Berner St/Fairclough street corner is backed up by Wess (albeit a year previous), Eagle and now PC Smith.

Adding it all up, we get a picture of Berner Street where prostitution may have occurred - but it would have been something very much out of the ordinary. Therefore we cannot rule out Stride having solicited there on the evening in question, we cannot rule out Jack having opted for Berner Street in search of a prostitute to kill - but we must realize that it is a scenario that swears against the overall picture painted by witnesses and the policeman knit to the street.

Prostitution may have occurred? Sorry, are you suggesting that Stride, with a record of soliciting, was merely hanging around Berner Street on an evening constitutional? That is a very naïve view Fisherman I must say. The bottom line is prostitution is most likely have occurred, the question is its frequency

"This is based on the assumption Jack trolled as opposed to being opportunistic, yes? There are many varying factors that need to be taken on board before striking a most probable solution. He may not have chosen, he may have taken advantage....if indeed it was him."

Couldn´t have agreed more, Monty. But since this thread is about a commuting killer, it is reasonable to work threadwise with an assumption that he was trolling. Whether true or not is another question, just like you say.

No, that’s totally unreasonable. Its an impossibility to second guess his reasons and actions. If this is the nature of this thread then it is moot.

"that is not to say they should be dismissed out of hand"

Phew!! When did I do that? I have, over and over again, said that the soliciting scenario may hold true. I have never said that Jack could not have been there, and done the cutting. I am merely pointing out that there are some serious flaws connected with making the assumption that Berner Street belonged to the normal hunting grounds for a prostitute stalker. And that is a wiew I see no reason whatsoever to change.

I didn’t state you did say that. It was a general comment not directed at anyone. The flaws are suggestive and by no means upheld. You are thinking within your own sphere which is understandable as that is your only option. You have no experience on 1888 Victorian London or, I hope, the killing of prostitutes. All comments made about the killers movements and train of though will always be tainted with ones own personal opinions and inexperience of the then environment, both social and physical.

"Levy was fully aware of what the couple in Church Passage were up to."

Levy was fully aware of what he THOUGHT the couple were up to. And he was probably completely right. But that has very little bearing on the Stride case, not least because the recorded events from Berner Street speaks of something else than Stride turning quick tricks. Plus, mind you, she was doing it in a street where there was normally no prosti ...

Of course it has a bearing. Both Stride and Eddowes were seen outside a club minutes before being found murders within and within an hour of each other. Two women virtually mimicking each others actions.

Sorry ´bout that!

You’re forgiven.

Monty

[Rubyretro]

Krantz ; came into the club at around 9 pm (presumably by the front door, which was open for the members to use), no mention of a woman, and he was still there after the murder. His mention of 'singing' refers to the estimated time of the killing.

By the way -when discussing the frequency of prostitution in Berner Street
and the unsuitability, or otherwise, of Dutfield's Yard for immoral purposes, you still haven't replied to that neighbour's comment of the yard 'bearing a bad character at night', Fish ? The neighbour, being 'on the spot' would know more than PC SMith, since the Prostitutes would probably hide from the PC and be aware of the timings of his beat !

Joseph Lave : It was so dark in the yard that he had to feel his way along the wall of the club to find his way back in.[2] No mention of a woman, and no hint of streams of people : he says, no one was there. This is after midnight, when we know that the front door had been closed, and members of the club were using the side door.

Wess : OK, I see that members DID use the side door at 11.30pm -but they left en masse.

"From ninety to 100 persons attended the discussion, which terminated soon after half-past eleven, when the bulk of the members left, using the street door, the most convenient exit. From twenty to thirty members remained, some staying in the lecture-room and the others going downstairs. Of those upstairs a few continued the discussion, while the rest were singing. The windows of the lecture-room were partly open".

He gives the criteria for joining in the club as being "working MEN" of socialist persuasion.
Most of the men left after the discussion (and I bet, took any women home).

I've now read all the witness statements at the inquest : where did you get your info on the club ?
And pertinately, the club meeting on the night Liz died ?

[Fisherman]

Monty:

"I do not like the implication that Im being intentionally selective here Fisherman, a friendly warning has been fired. However, yes, Wess states this was a year before. It still happened never the less, and the idea that prostitutes did walk the Berner St/Fairclough street corner is backed up by Wess (albeit a year previous), Eagle and now PC Smith."

I am not trying to paint you out as intentionally selective, Monty. I know you as a discerning researcher, but even discerning researchers may sometimes forget to paint the whole picture in an argument. And in this case, you produced only the testimony speaking FOR Berner Street being frequented by prostitutes. Actually, we know that the coroner, in summing up, said that "the police stated, and several of the witnesses corroborated the statement, that although many couples are to be seen at night in the Commercial-road, it was exceptional to meet them in Berner-street." And the word "exceptional" is a strong pointer to Berner Street not belonging to the same kind of streets as the other canonical streets involved. To my mind, this information deserves to be presented alongside the testimony you added. If you are of the meaning that Berner Street was as prostitution-infested as any other street in the East end, I simply disagree - but that does not involve my pointing you out as anything but a totally honest participator in this discussion as well as in any other discussion I have ever seen you involved in. If that is how I came across, I´m sorry.

"are you suggesting that Stride, with a record of soliciting, was merely hanging around Berner Street on an evening constitutional? That is a very naïve view Fisherman I must say."

I don´t know how much of my posts you have read, Monty, but my stance has always been that Stride´s meeting with Marshall´s man seems to be anything but a casual punter/prostitute meeting. Everything about the ten minutes witnessed about by Marshall bears testimony to a very affectionate meeting. Plus it is a reasonable conclusion that the flower on her chest was the result of this tète-à-tète.
This does not mean that I am hopelessly forlorn to naïvety, luckily - for I have always said that it may well be that Stride moved on from this affectionate moment to soliciting. Since BS man seems a spitting image of Marshall´s man, we may have a case where he returns to, unprepared, find Liz soliciting outside the yard, therefore deciding to move her away from it, with him.
So to me, yes, she may well have resorted to making a few bob out of it, after the meeting with the affectionate man in Marshall´s doorway (or the one close by, to be more exact).

" You are thinking within your own sphere which is understandable as that is your only option. You have no experience on 1888 Victorian London or, I hope, the killing of prostitutes. All comments made about the killers movements and train of though will always be tainted with ones own personal opinions and inexperience of the then environment, both social and physical. "

Yours, as well as mine, absolutely. The problems only arise when we lock ourselves to a certain wiew, believing that it MUST be correct. And I don´t think that either of us have entered that realm as yet. I believe that JAck is the next best bet, and a very plausible one. But I think that the aquaintance scenario fits the details considerably better.

"Of course it has a bearing. Both Stride and Eddowes were seen outside a club minutes before being found murders within and within an hour of each other. Two women virtually mimicking each others actions."

... in that particular respect, perhaps. But it calls for a little bit of what you dub "thinking within your own sphere" to make it significant, Monty. It is not as if we know that Eddowes and her man met at the passage entrance where they were seen - they may well have been on their way from St Botolph´s, for example - and we know that Stride was not resorting to standing about at the entrance of the yard the whole evening. And if we are to listen to the coroner, we know that the street where the IWMEC was situated, was not even a street where prosti ...

Sorry ´bout that! Again!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Ruby:

"when discussing the frequency of prostitution in Berner Street
and the unsuitability, or otherwise, of Dutfield's Yard for immoral purposes, you still haven't replied to that neighbour's comment of the yard 'bearing a bad character at night', Fish?"

and

"the Prostitutes would probably hide from the PC and be aware of the timings of his beat!"

Ruby, you must realize that as PC Smith stated that there were very few prostitutes about in Berner street, he did so by comparing to other experiences he had had. He would have seen them in scores in many a street - but in Berner Street they were very few.
This could owe to one out of two things:
1. I am correct, and Berner Street was not a street that was normally frequented by prostitutes.
2. You are correct, and the scores of prostitutes on Berner Street were much more cautious when it came to beeing spotted by the police than they were in the other streets Smith had visited - the ones he was comparing with. The moment Smith put his foot on Berner Street, hundreds of unfortunates dived into the doorways, keeping a low profile as our good PC walked by. After that, they all reemerged, resulting in the neighbour you speak of not being able to sleep because of the loud orgies in the yard.

Once again - and I have lost count by now - I am saying that YES, there may have been the occasional prostitute about in Berner Street, but NO, that does not put Berner Street on equal footing with Buck´s Row and Hanbury Street when it comes to the viability of being a typical venue for a soliciting unfortunate/trolling Ripper scenario.

... and I can´t help asking myself why this is so hard to accept? Must this witnessed-about detail be left out of the discussion or dispelled? And if so: why?

The best,

Fisherman

[Errata]

Something to possibly consider:

I used to work with a needle exchange, and my city has a a long busy street infamous for prostitution so we worked around there a lot. My boss said that prostitution was "geographically a diffuse phenomenon" or something of the like. The main street had the highest concentration of prostitution, with lower and lower concentrations within about 10 blocks until the neighborhood dynamics changed. So 10 blocks away we might find two prostitutes, where on the main street there could be as many as 200. The more remote streets were actually where the most prostitutes got busted, and it was typically when they tried to solicit on their way to or from their patch. There were several bars and businesses in the outlying streets, so if they went for a drink or a burger and tried to solicit someone, it typically (though not always) went over poorly.

It seems that men who use prostitutes fall into two categories, regulars and the "aw what the heck" variety. The women soliciting men off their patches were typically hoping for the second variety, as they knew that the regulars would be on the main street.

I have no idea if this was true of Stride or not. It seems possible that if prostitutes only solicit on that street if they're passing through, and no one has a patch there, it would account for the somewhat conflicting testimony regarding the presence of prostitutes on that street.

By the way, my grandmother used to say "bad character". To her it meant violence, gang activity. Like my sister's wanna-be gang banger ex boyfriend. "Why does she always date men of bad character?" So maybe it's not one of those lovely Victorian euphemisms for prostitutes.

Just a thought.