Mitre Square in all it gory glory.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

Thanks for the link.

Thomas Catling enlarged upon the timing details, writing–

"A subsequent comparison of times [between Lloyds Weekly News and Catling hearing of the murder] showed that the man who conveyed the first news to the office must have been on the spot within five minutes of the discovery, and then walked very rapidly to Salisbury Square."

As the crow flies, Salisbury Square is about 1.25 miles from Mitre Square, so Lloyds Weekly News hearing of the murder at 2.10 am sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Someone was on the ball on this night of nights.

Regards,

Simon

[C. F. Leon]

Maybe Morris was listening to Metallica on his Walkman? Seriously, shouldn't he also have heard Lawende's group? And he doesn't mention THEM. He may have noticed the cop because he was expecting that or perhaps he took a break (or went upstairs, switched to the mop, etc.) at that point. But, if asked, would he have been able to tell how MANY times the cop came through (without doing the math right there and then)? Maybe he was hard of hearing and didn't want to say so in fear of losing his job (or didn't know that he was).

The three men may have gone that way MANY times before, but had they done so TOGETHER?

- CFL

[jerryd]

Maybe Morris was listening to Metallica on his Walkman? Seriously, shouldn't he also have heard Lawende's group? And he doesn't mention THEM. He may have noticed the cop because he was expecting that or perhaps he took a break (or went upstairs, switched to the mop, etc.) at that point. But, if asked, would he have been able to tell how MANY times the cop came through (without doing the math right there and then)? Maybe he was hard of hearing and didn't want to say so in fear of losing his job (or didn't know that he was).

The three men may have gone that way MANY times before, but had they done so TOGETHER?

- CFL

C.F. L

I'm not sure Morris would be able to hear the 3 witnesses from where he was. He did open the door to the warehouse a few minutes before Watkins arrived again in the square, though. Around 1:40ish. Watkins previous pass through the square was around 1:30.

The 3 witnesses loitered in the Imperial Club for several minutes to wait the rain out. They left the club at about 1:34 or so and noticed the couple standing at the passage to Mitre Square. My questions are, was the couple standing out in the driving rain or did they appear from a nearby location and what were the police officers doing when the rain was pouring down? Also, why no mention of the rain from anyone else? Eddowes was not recorded as being drenched from the rain. No mention of soaked cobblestones or puddles.

[Phil Carter]

C.F. L

I'm not sure Morris would be able to hear the 3 witnesses from where he was. He did open the door to the warehouse a few minutes before Watkins arrived again in the square, though. Around 1:40ish. Watkins previous pass through the square was around 1:30.

The 3 witnesses loitered in the Imperial Club for several minutes to wait the rain out. They left the club at about 1:34 or so and noticed the couple standing at the passage to Mitre Square. My questions are, was the couple standing out in the driving rain or did they appear from a nearby location and what were the police officers doing when the rain was pouring down? Also, why no mention of the rain from anyone else? Eddowes was not recorded as being drenched from the rain. No mention of soaked cobblestones or puddles.

Hello jerryd,

You can add the following to the scenario..

It is very probable that Eddowes and her supposed killer would not have been quiet. Why? Because
a)Eddowes was wearing men's boots. At her height, it is highly unlikely her feet would have been a snug fit. It is likely the boots were too big for her feet. Therefore, her feet would scrape when walking.
b) Most nearly any couple chat, talk or even laugh whilst walking.
c) Two pairs of feet walking would make a sound in that enclosed area of Mitre Square. We must remember however that Eddowes was not sober. Sober enough to walk after three hours in the drunk tank yes..but sober? No. Therefore it is likely her gait would have been affected by her night on the booze. Yes, she may have been supported whilst walking..but again, two pairs of footsteps in an empty, enclosed area would be heard..clearly..especially given Morris 'normally' heard the regular footsteps of the policeman on his beat (all..amazingly enough. .not on this night...)
d) Watkins stated her saw not a soul all night long on his beat. No one. All night. In which case Morris cannot have heard any person either..according to him. .all night either.
That means..quite simply.. the sound of two people walking together would have stood out because it wasn't the known nor expected sound he referred to..i.e. the policeman's measured walk on his beat.

His testimony, and Watkins' testimony both go against the norm. The night after night norm.
Imho..neither man's testimony on this point, makes sense.
Because BOTH men explain the 'norm' as totally different to that of what they say happened that night.
One..if not both..are telling porkies.
And talking of that..Ye olde policeman who's beat includes the length of the alleyway leading into Mitre Square, P.C. Harvey, Quite amazingly to my mind..responded to Morris' whistle. Now..by my estimation..I could be wrong I admit, he should be nearly at the furthest point on his beat FROM Mitre Square by the time if the whistle...
Add to that the testimony of P.C.Hutt..who said he saw Eddowes leave Bishopsgate police station at 12.55 am turning left. This is the same man who in 9 years, 1880-1889 received 5 bad reports including failing yo report information received(1880) being absent from his beat and telling lies (1880)..drunk on duty (1883)..off duty (1885) and assaulting a prisoner (1889).
Now I don't know about you. .but I don't call that man to be of a reliable character..nor reliable witness. So how reliable is his comment that it would have taken Eddowes 8 mins to get to Mitre Square? Did he take her semi drunken state into account? We do not know. Did he take into account the weather? We do not know. Did he take into account her oversized boots? We do not know. Therefore..given his record..and these questions, we can have doubts as to the veracity of his testimony.

Now..we can all turn a blind eye to the possibility that these four people..Morris, Watkins, Harvey and Hutt all either told embellished accounts of the facts or nay. Given the amount of unanswered questions left behind..I humbly suggest we do not turn a blind eye to their testimony.
One swallow doth not a summer make. A flock of seagulls however cannot make the sun shine brightly either.


Phil

[jerryd]

And talking of that..Ye olde policeman who's beat includes the length of the alleyway leading into Mitre Square, P.C. Harvey, Quite amazingly to my mind..responded to Morris' whistle. Now..by my estimation..I could be wrong I admit, he should be nearly at the furthest point on his beat FROM Mitre Square by the time if the whistle...

Hi Phil,

Thanks for the additions.

PC Harvey by his own admission would have been very close to Mitre Square at the time the whistle was blown by Morris. He had checked the passage about 1:40 and headed to Aldgate. From there his beat took him down Aldgate to Mitre Street then back up Aldgate past Duke Street to Houndsditch. He states when he was heading back toward Duke Street he heard the whistle. The furthest point on his beat from Mitre Square would have been Goring St. and Houndsditch.

I have him somewhere on Aldgate Street between Mitre Street and Duke Street when the whistle was blown.