Mitre Square in all it gory glory.

[jerryd]

And talking of that..Ye olde policeman who's beat includes the length of the alleyway leading into Mitre Square, P.C. Harvey, Quite amazingly to my mind..responded to Morris' whistle. Now..by my estimation..I could be wrong I admit, he should be nearly at the furthest point on his beat FROM Mitre Square by the time if the whistle...

Hi Phil,

Thanks for the additions.

PC Harvey by his own admission would have been very close to Mitre Square at the time the whistle was blown by Morris. He had checked the passage about 1:40 and headed to Aldgate. From there his beat took him down Aldgate to Mitre Street then back up Aldgate past Duke Street to Houndsditch. He states when he was heading back toward Duke Street he heard the whistle. The furthest point on his beat from Mitre Square would have been Goring St. and Houndsditch.

I have him somewhere on Aldgate Street between Mitre Street and Duke Street when the whistle was blown.

[Phil Carter]

C.F. L

I'm not sure Morris would be able to hear the 3 witnesses from where he was. He did open the door to the warehouse a few minutes before Watkins arrived again in the square, though. Around 1:40ish. Watkins previous pass through the square was around 1:30.

The 3 witnesses loitered in the Imperial Club for several minutes to wait the rain out. They left the club at about 1:34 or so and noticed the couple standing at the passage to Mitre Square. My questions are, was the couple standing out in the driving rain or did they appear from a nearby location and what were the police officers doing when the rain was pouring down? Also, why no mention of the rain from anyone else? Eddowes was not recorded as being drenched from the rain. No mention of soaked cobblestones or puddles.

Hello jerryd,

You can add the following to the scenario..

It is very probable that Eddowes and her supposed killer would not have been quiet. Why? Because
a)Eddowes was wearing men's boots. At her height, it is highly unlikely her feet would have been a snug fit. It is likely the boots were too big for her feet. Therefore, her feet would scrape when walking.
b) Most nearly any couple chat, talk or even laugh whilst walking.
c) Two pairs of feet walking would make a sound in that enclosed area of Mitre Square. We must remember however that Eddowes was not sober. Sober enough to walk after three hours in the drunk tank yes..but sober? No. Therefore it is likely her gait would have been affected by her night on the booze. Yes, she may have been supported whilst walking..but again, two pairs of footsteps in an empty, enclosed area would be heard..clearly..especially given Morris 'normally' heard the regular footsteps of the policeman on his beat (all..amazingly enough. .not on this night...)
d) Watkins stated her saw not a soul all night long on his beat. No one. All night. In which case Morris cannot have heard any person either..according to him. .all night either.
That means..quite simply.. the sound of two people walking together would have stood out because it wasn't the known nor expected sound he referred to..i.e. the policeman's measured walk on his beat.

His testimony, and Watkins' testimony both go against the norm. The night after night norm.
Imho..neither man's testimony on this point, makes sense.
Because BOTH men explain the 'norm' as totally different to that of what they say happened that night.
One..if not both..are telling porkies.
And talking of that..Ye olde policeman who's beat includes the length of the alleyway leading into Mitre Square, P.C. Harvey, Quite amazingly to my mind..responded to Morris' whistle. Now..by my estimation..I could be wrong I admit, he should be nearly at the furthest point on his beat FROM Mitre Square by the time if the whistle...
Add to that the testimony of P.C.Hutt..who said he saw Eddowes leave Bishopsgate police station at 12.55 am turning left. This is the same man who in 9 years, 1880-1889 received 5 bad reports including failing yo report information received(1880) being absent from his beat and telling lies (1880)..drunk on duty (1883)..off duty (1885) and assaulting a prisoner (1889).
Now I don't know about you. .but I don't call that man to be of a reliable character..nor reliable witness. So how reliable is his comment that it would have taken Eddowes 8 mins to get to Mitre Square? Did he take her semi drunken state into account? We do not know. Did he take into account the weather? We do not know. Did he take into account her oversized boots? We do not know. Therefore..given his record..and these questions, we can have doubts as to the veracity of his testimony.

Now..we can all turn a blind eye to the possibility that these four people..Morris, Watkins, Harvey and Hutt all either told embellished accounts of the facts or nay. Given the amount of unanswered questions left behind..I humbly suggest we do not turn a blind eye to their testimony.
One swallow doth not a summer make. A flock of seagulls however cannot make the sun shine brightly either.


Phil

[jerryd]

Maybe Morris was listening to Metallica on his Walkman? Seriously, shouldn't he also have heard Lawende's group? And he doesn't mention THEM. He may have noticed the cop because he was expecting that or perhaps he took a break (or went upstairs, switched to the mop, etc.) at that point. But, if asked, would he have been able to tell how MANY times the cop came through (without doing the math right there and then)? Maybe he was hard of hearing and didn't want to say so in fear of losing his job (or didn't know that he was).

The three men may have gone that way MANY times before, but had they done so TOGETHER?

- CFL

C.F. L

I'm not sure Morris would be able to hear the 3 witnesses from where he was. He did open the door to the warehouse a few minutes before Watkins arrived again in the square, though. Around 1:40ish. Watkins previous pass through the square was around 1:30.

The 3 witnesses loitered in the Imperial Club for several minutes to wait the rain out. They left the club at about 1:34 or so and noticed the couple standing at the passage to Mitre Square. My questions are, was the couple standing out in the driving rain or did they appear from a nearby location and what were the police officers doing when the rain was pouring down? Also, why no mention of the rain from anyone else? Eddowes was not recorded as being drenched from the rain. No mention of soaked cobblestones or puddles.

[C. F. Leon]

Maybe Morris was listening to Metallica on his Walkman? Seriously, shouldn't he also have heard Lawende's group? And he doesn't mention THEM. He may have noticed the cop because he was expecting that or perhaps he took a break (or went upstairs, switched to the mop, etc.) at that point. But, if asked, would he have been able to tell how MANY times the cop came through (without doing the math right there and then)? Maybe he was hard of hearing and didn't want to say so in fear of losing his job (or didn't know that he was).

The three men may have gone that way MANY times before, but had they done so TOGETHER?

- CFL

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

Thanks for the link.

Thomas Catling enlarged upon the timing details, writing–

"A subsequent comparison of times [between Lloyds Weekly News and Catling hearing of the murder] showed that the man who conveyed the first news to the office must have been on the spot within five minutes of the discovery, and then walked very rapidly to Salisbury Square."

As the crow flies, Salisbury Square is about 1.25 miles from Mitre Square, so Lloyds Weekly News hearing of the murder at 2.10 am sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Someone was on the ball on this night of nights.

Regards,

Simon

[Debra A]

Hi All,

In the early hours of 30th September, Lloyds Weekly News editor Thomas Catling visited Mitre Square, Bishopsgate police station and Golden Lane mortuary. News of the murder had reached his Salisbury Square editorial offices at 2.10 am, ten minutes before Dr Gordon Brown arrived on the scene.

These details can be found in Thomas Catling's column of "Personal Reminiscences", Lloyds Weekly News, 27th November 1892, in which he also expressed surprise at the speed with which news of the murder had reached his newspaper.

Catling's own account of the Eddowes murder can be read in Lloyds Weekly News, 30th September 1888.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,
The story also appears in Thos. Catling's memoirs 'My Life's Pilgrimage' 1911
although he doesn't give the same specific time of when he received news of the murders, saying instead it was in the early hours.
Catling was a friend of Dr Gordon Brown.

http://www.archive.org/stream/mylife...e/182/mode/2up

[Monty]

8 minutes before Browns arrival.

...and Brown was not the first medical man on the scene.

Unsurprising to me Simon really, not when you investigate into how the press was operating at the time.

However, there is nothing to support Catlings claim.

Monty

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

In the early hours of 30th September, Lloyds Weekly News editor Thomas Catling visited Mitre Square, Bishopsgate police station and Golden Lane mortuary. News of the murder had reached his Salisbury Square editorial offices at 2.10 am, ten minutes before Dr Gordon Brown arrived on the scene.

These details can be found in Thomas Catling's column of "Personal Reminiscences", Lloyds Weekly News, 27th November 1892, in which he also expressed surprise at the speed with which news of the murder had reached his newspaper.

Catling's own account of the Eddowes murder can be read in Lloyds Weekly News, 30th September 1888.

Regards,

Simon

[Raoul's Obsession]

I dont think you are far off the reality of it Raoul, however we have Watkins testimony and whilst we may question it, its what we have.

Monty

You're absolutely right,
I think we agree more than we disagree. If Watkins said that at 1.35 there was nothing there and at 1.45 there was a body, then I'm happy to believe him. My point was that the ripper and Eddowes had no way of knowing that they had ten minutes. I think at best Eddowes (or the ripper) knew that Watkins beat took him 10 to 12 minutes but based on our conversation above, they had no way of knowing where the PC was on his beat at that particular time and therefore no way of knowing when he would next walk into the square (unless they winessed him at some point). Thus, a knowledge of beats was no use to jack in calculating how long he had with a victim. I still think a knowledge of beats would have been very beneficial in knowing which way to exit however. My guess is that he had no idea when the PC was going to arrive and went by ear (literally).

regards

Raoul

[Monty]

What I presented in my previous post was the official regulated procedure, reality was sonewhat different as Peter correctly points out.

Don Rumbelow told me about some signals PCs used to warn each other of an oncoming Beat Sergeant or Inspector, such as armband and button rubbing with cuffs.

I dont think you are far off the reality of it Raoul, however we have Watkins testimony and whilst we may question it, its what we have.

Monty

[PC Roadnight]

It seems to be a common misconception that beats were policed in a strict time/rotation/direction fashion. Most PCs in my experience, particularly good 'thief-takers', did their best to vary their patrol. Though the 'weary PC' was probably always a factor, most working girls I think would not worry too much about police anyway as, unless they were caught actually soliciting, they would I suspect brazen it out. They probably conducted their short liaisons in out of the way places as far as possible, and yes I'm sure that if a PC had recently passed they would then grab the nearest 'punter'. Shame if it turned out to be Jack!

The supervision with timed meeting points, usually with the patrolling sergeant/inspector, was also always subject to the occurences that the PC had to deal with. This also provided of course a safeguard in the days before wireless communications that a PC failing to make a meet would trigger off a search. Whistles and "exposing your lantern 3 times in the direction you expect to find another officer" were not always effective!

I am in the midst of a house move, but when things settle down I will post the Beat Book details for Arbour Square which may help people to understand the nature of patrol and beat working. I was lucky in the 60s when I joined to be posted to a station where I became friends with a veteran pre-war PC. He had joined when post WW1 PCs were still about and had 'acquired' the book from one of them. There was very little change it seemed from the Victorian / Edwardian style of policing apart from vehicles not being horse drawn!! Peter

[Raoul's Obsession]

Thanks Monty & Phil

I must say that was more detail than I was expecting to get - thanks heaps. However - it still doesn't necessarily imply that police beats worked like train timetables. You simply say that there was an expectation as to speed and that this was enforced by Sergeants (I think the Alice McK murder illustrates this perfectly). But put yourself in the position of the Sergeant. You arive at a particular spot an hour into a PC's shift. He's done 4 laps by this time - if he's out by 5 minutes that's only about 1 minute per beat. You probably wouldn't see this as too excessive and you would let him continue (still 5 minutes late) for the rest of the night.

I haven't made that point very well at all. I guess all I'm trying to say is that I think there would be some variability as to where a policeman will be at any one point in time and that it wouldn't be as predictable as we think. I don't think Swiss Rail was running the Met in 1888.

[Phil Carter]

The issue of fleeing directly into the path of police is less troublesome to me. I think we need to stop looking at these crimes like someone playing pacman. It reminds me of the map in Harry Potter that reveals everyone's location. I imagine that approaching police officers were not as silent as we think - certainly that's why members of the public suggested they wear rubber soles (which they then didn't have). If Morris asserts that he could usually hear the policeman on his beat from within the warehouse then it's sensible to assume jack could hear him approaching from in the square.

And as has already been pointed out - 1 minute is an awefully long time. Our protagonists only need to be 30 seconds appart for them to not see anyone at all. I just can't quite buy into the assumption that Jack had a good knowledge of police beats - that the prostitutes had some knowledge of beats in the areas that they frequently solicited I fully concur with - bt the ripper? No way. The main reason for that stance is simply the fact that there are so many locations involved, with so many policemen, spread over half of whitechappel. That's suggesting he did an aweful lot of research!

Also, something that I have always wanted to know about police beats is whether each 'beat' (and by that i mean each lap of their beat) had a designated start and stop time. I imagine they didn't. Certainly police officers when asked how long their beats took usually supplied a range (i.e. 10-12 minutes). I have alsways understood that they clocked on a certain time and started their beat and then they just kept going round and round (with each lap taking however long it needs to) until clock off time. I can't imagine them 'making up time' by walking quicker or 'pausing' to take up time if they were ahead of schedule - but is anyone here able to tell me how it occured? I see this as very important because if a beat simply takes as long as it takes there is no way that anyone has any idea of exactly where a policeman is going to be at any oone point in time unless they just witnessed the policeman leave (i.e. begin his lap) thereby knowing they had 10-12 mins approx.

thoughts??

Hello RO,

You asked for thoughts. Here is a thought. Nothing else (I know Neil is watching...lol.. just kidding Neil!)..

When can a man know a police beat timing with such certainty? When can a man know that a police beat has been reversed that very night? There is only one answer to that, in my opinion....

When that man is a policeman.

(No I am not putting this forward as a theorectical certainty..just answering a question...)

But it does answer a lot of questions about the knowledge and timing of a particular policeman's beat.

best wishes

Phil

[Monty]

RO,

The average speed it was expected a PC to conduct his beat was 2 ˝ MPH in the day and 3 MPH during the evening.

The beats were shorter in the metropolis and became longer towards the suburbs but, on average, they were around 35 mins long. Short beats about 15 mins. Below is an extract from the General Regulations, Instructions and Orders, for the Government and Guidance of the Metropolitan Police Force. 1862

The beats are all numbered and entered in a register, which can be referred to at any time. This register shows the streets, roads, squares, &c., in each beat, and the time required to pass over it at the rate of two and-a-half miles an hour. A sergeant has the charge of each section, and of the men doing duty in it; he is responsible for the proper conduct of the men, and, to satisfy himself that they are doing their duty properly, he is constantly patrolling the section. As a check upon the sergeant and the men working under him, the inspector visits the subdivison at different points during the day and night, the superintendent keeping a vigilant eye upon the working of the entire division; while, as a check upon the whole, the commissioners and district superintendents either make inspection of the divisions in person, or send out special officers from Whitehall to report as to the manner in which the whole duty is done.

It will be observed, from the much larger number of night-beats than of those in the day, that the patrol-work of the police is principally done at night : night being the time of danger, and consequently of watching. in round numbers, two-thirds of the whole force are employed by night, and one-third by day; the men taking their turns on both kinds of duty. The night constables go on duty at 10 P.M. and remain until 6 A.M., when the [-101-] day duty begins. The whole service is arranged by reliefs, each man taking his turn of eight months' night duty and four months' day duty in the year. It is also arranged that the force patrolling the principal thoroughfares shall be greater at certain hours than at others, the largest number being on duty between seven and ten in the evening; long experience having shown that it is between these hours that the greatest number of thefts and depredations are attempted, as well as because the streets are then the most disorderly by reason of the number of drunken people abroad.

And now observe what are the routine duties expected to be performed by the police-constable on patrol. These are carefully laid down for him in his book of 'General Regulations, Instructions, and Orders,' the details of which he is required to master, to remember, and to carry out. He is informed, at the outset, that the principal object of the institution of the force is the prevention of crime:-

'To this end (says the Order-book) every effort of the police is to be directed. The security of person and property, the preservation of the public tranquillity, and all the other objects of a police establishment will thus be better effected than by the detection and punishment of the offender after be has succeeded in committing the crime. This should constantly be kept in mind by every member of the police force, as the guide for his own conduct. The police should endeavour to distinguish themselves by such vigilance and activity, as may render it extremely difficult for any one to commit a crime within that portion of the town under their charge.'

In carrying out these general instructions, the men on patrol are directed to make themselves thoroughly acquainted with the geography of their respective sections, and with the names of the several streets, thoroughfares, courts, and houses. The police-constable is even 'expected to possess such a knowledge of the inhabitants of each house as to enable him to recognise their persons, and thus prevent mistakes and be enabled to render assistance to the inhabitants when called upon to do so.' He has to see to the proper fastening of the doors and windows of the houses along his beat, with a view to the better security of the inmates. He is to observe whether coal-holes, trap-doors, or other places, on or near the footway, are securely covered over; and report when they are not so, in order that this cause of danger to the public may be removed. He is to observe the conduct of any suspicious person hanging about a house, and to take notice of any one carrying away parcels or bundles from it at unseasonable hours under suspicious circumstances. He is to pay particular attention to public-houses and beer-shops, which, [-101-] however, he is not to enter except in the immediate execution of his duty. He is to report all nuisances in the streets, courts, or thoroughfares, that steps may be taken for their removal. He is also, amongst his other various duties by day and night, to look after beggars, tramps, and street nuisances; to watch letter-pillars and street lamps (reporting whether they are properly lighted or not); to check the nuisance of smoky chimneys and street noises; to prevent the solicitation of prostitutes; to seize stray dogs; to take charge of lost children; to remove destitute persons from the streets; to carry accident cases to the hospital; to report dangerous houses or structures; to watch the outbreak of fires, and assist in their extinction before the arrival of the Fire Brigade*; to take charge of exposed property at fires; to seize obscene prints and publications, and charge the persons offering them for sale before the magistrates; to prevent indecencies and offences against public morality generally; to charge disorderly persons obstructing thoroughfares or causing breaches of the peace; on all of which subjects the police have special and distinct instructions.

It wasnt uncommon for PCs to skip parts of their beat or alter it slightly in order to make up on lost time. They also stopped of of a fly brew (as Rob and I have found during our research).

On the whole, if the reason was valid, the Beat Sergeants wouldnt discipline PCs for slacking on their beat. However, as I said, they had to have a bloody good reason.

Regards

Monty

[Raoul's Obsession]

I too see the issue of which direction Jack left Mitre Square as very iinteresting indeed. I would agree that if startled by Morris it wouldn't make much sense to flee towards danger, and hence, yes I think Mitre street the logical alternative.

The issue of fleeing directly into the path of police is less troublesome to me. I think we need to stop looking at these crimes like someone playing pacman. It reminds me of the map in Harry Potter that reveals everyone's location. I imagine that approaching police officers were not as silent as we think - certainly that's why members of the public suggested they wear rubber soles (which they then didn't have). If Morris asserts that he could usually hear the policeman on his beat from within the warehouse then it's sensible to assume jack could hear him approaching from in the square.

And as has already been pointed out - 1 minute is an awefully long time. Our protagonists only need to be 30 seconds appart for them to not see anyone at all. I just can't quite buy into the assumption that Jack had a good knowledge of police beats - that the prostitutes had some knowledge of beats in the areas that they frequently solicited I fully concur with - bt the ripper? No way. The main reason for that stance is simply the fact that there are so many locations involved, with so many policemen, spread over half of whitechappel. That's suggesting he did an aweful lot of research!

Also, something that I have always wanted to know about police beats is whether each 'beat' (and by that i mean each lap of their beat) had a designated start and stop time. I imagine they didn't. Certainly police officers when asked how long their beats took usually supplied a range (i.e. 10-12 minutes). I have alsways understood that they clocked on a certain time and started their beat and then they just kept going round and round (with each lap taking however long it needs to) until clock off time. I can't imagine them 'making up time' by walking quicker or 'pausing' to take up time if they were ahead of schedule - but is anyone here able to tell me how it occured? I see this as very important because if a beat simply takes as long as it takes there is no way that anyone has any idea of exactly where a policeman is going to be at any oone point in time unless they just witnessed the policeman leave (i.e. begin his lap) thereby knowing they had 10-12 mins approx.

thoughts??