Mitre Square in all it gory glory.

[Rubyretro]

Monty -the first quote on Levy's apprehension is given on Casebook, under witnesses, under the post for Lawende.

Casebook itself groups the three men, giving exactly the same timing.

If Lawende saw JtR and the others didn't (or refused to go into details), it must have been a case of seconds difference.

I agree that technically they were one person and two people walking separately ; The fact remains that they were walking in a bunch, feet apart, on the same street, coming from the same place, at the same time, and going in the same direction.

I don't think that it's terribly important !

I still think that that we get the feeling that Mitre Square was a threatening spot -you , yourself pointed out on another thread that it was infamous for being used by prostitutes and their clients- for innocent passers by, who I maintain would be too fearful to cut through the Square at night.

Thus, Morris would not hear alot of traffic through the Square at that time of night, and we might
have expected him to remember a noise.

As far as I know, Kate was the only prostitute at the Square that night; Maybe there were others that I don't know about ? Given her timings, how many clients could she have had ?

[claire]

Thanks, Lynn...the sex bit was the bit I was trying to be decorous and avoid Heheh.

I still don't think that there is something necessarily suspicious in Morris' not hearing (or, better, not registering having heard) people crossing the square. Plenty of times I've missed hearing the postman at the door but heard the milkman (stop it)...maybe I was in the bathroom, maybe just preoccupied with something else. If the postman has a heart attack at the end of my garden path, does that make my not having heard him suspicious? Especially if I confess to hearing the milkman?

[claire]

I still think that that we get the feeling that Mitre Square was a threatening spot -you , yourself pointed out on another thread that it was infamous for being used by prostitutes and their clients- for innocent passers by, who I maintain would be too fearful to cut through the Square at night.

Thus, Morris would not hear alot of traffic through the Square at that time of night, and we might
have expected him to remember a noise.

I don't understand your reasoning here, Rubyretro. If it was 'infamous for being used by prostitutes and their clients,' then presumably Morris would get used to not bothering to notice their comings and goings (so to speak). Why, then, is it 'thus, Morris would not hear a lot of traffic'? Or are you saying he wouldn't hear the prostitutes and punters *because* he was used to them, but he might hear other passers-by? How would he differentiate? And how on earth would he be expected to differentiate a prostitute and her murderer who were in the guise of a prostitute and her client? Did they have different footfalls?

[Monty]

Ruby,

Im not arguing the three were not moving as a group, Im questioning if Levy said those words as he is the only person to say he did.

The jurors, and others, reaction of laughter upon hearing what Levy says he said also indicates he was refering to his moral objection rather than his fear.

As for them moving via the square, as I said, they all lived in the opposite direction. They had no reason to enter Mitre Square.

Cheers

Monty

[Phil Carter]

Hello Neil, Ruby, all

Simon kindly sent me this... and after much perusal... there doesn't seem to have been people around the area...not just Mitre Square...that night..

The Star, Oct 1st 1888. interview with P.C.Watkins

"And when did you pass through the square again?" asked the reporter.

"At about a quarter before two."

"Had you met any person on your rounds?"

"Not a soul."

"Nor heard any noise?"

"Not a sound, but the echo of my own footsteps."

(My emphasis.)

He didn't meet a soul. Not a soul. Nobody. Didn't see anyone, didn't hear anyone..on his rounds...that includes a main thoroughfare or two..does it not? And he didn't meet a soul on his rounds. Plural.

best wishes

Phil

[The Good Michael]

Clapp and his wife heard nothing. Pearce and his entire family heard nothing. Watkins heard nothing. Morris heard nothing. Conspiracy, or silence?

Mike

[Phil Carter]

Morris was not responsible for goings-on in Mitre Square. Why would he lie? Really, he has to be considered one of the most trustworthy of all non-witnesses.

Mike

Hello Mike,all,

I don't know why he would lie.. but I do know he was an ex-policeman. A serving policeman (see posting, above), said he never heard nor saw anyone on his rounds and only heard his own footstep echo. Now if Watlins is to be believed, no-one was around at all that night. No-one. That is quite a statement if you think about it. Not a soul...

Then we have the policeman and his family living in the square, fast asleep. With all the hubbub and comings and goings after 1a.m., that policeman slept through it.. including the sound of a police whistle being blown. (think of the echo)

Let's talk acoustics. I was in that square. There is a distinct echo. Watkins confirms the word, echo. Now, if anyone made a noise..including ten or more people running into the square from all directions, doctors, policemen, even the cart to take the body to the mortuary. We have people standing there drawing the scene of the crimes. We have detectives, Outram, Halse and Marriot turning up from just around the corner in Houdsditch from Special Branch. That's a lot of echo. And voices. And noise. Lots of boots clip clopping along, echo-ing. The 2nd murder in 45 minutes. Voices would not have been in a whisper. And Pearse, a policeman, slept through it all, snug as a bug in a rug, until a policeman called on him at 2.20a.m. He heard someone knocking at his door to answer it.. but not all the noise around him?

That is THREE people, two policemen and an ex-policeman. All of whom in the space of 85 minutes (12.20 when Pearse says he went to bed) until 1.45 a.m., didn't see anything, hear anything, were asleep, were sweeping the floor, or on a soul-less beat that was repeated throughout that time...all causing a set of circumstances that is really hard to believe given the acoustics.

Someone is telling porkies. In 1888, everyone believed every single word, without question. I question it.

You have Halse, a detective, the only person to have visited both Goulston Street and Mitre Square before the discovery of the GSG.

You have the testimony of John Kelly, (unproven, as yet, to have been a police informant or not) shown by both Simon Wood and myself amongst others, to have been false. (on another thread).

You have another policeman, dispatched at 1.a.m from Bishopsgate Police station by the desk officer on duty to get a doctor, who lives in the Finsbury Park area. Now when he turns up the doctor's house, at roughly 1.10 am in the morning, ye olde doctor is seemingly dressed and ready to go out at a moments notice. And they turn up just before 1.20 a.m. To do it in that space of time, they must have taken a cab. That means a horse and driver. That means more noise trundling into Mitre Square.

Now whether one sees this as unusual in 2010 or not, the mere suggestion in 1888 that someone isn't telling the truth doesn't even arise.

Sorry, this scenario and set of circumstances is/are just too incredible to be believable. John Kelly wasn't the only one, in my opinion, telling porkies.

Mike's question is "why" would Morris lie...

A suspicious soul would call this a set-up. But according to Watkins, there wasn't a soul around, suspicious or not, remember?

Make of it what you will ladies and gentlemen. Acoustics, timing and light.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

One wonders if P.C. Pearse and family came under this jurisdiction? I came across this litle tit-bit in Dickens's Dictionary of London, 1888, an Unconventional Handbook, the original edition published by Charles Dickens's son in 1888.

Under the heading for Police, a description of the police force of London, both Metropolitan and City. There is an interesting article under the heading "Special Duties"....below..

"The following questions have been submitted to the Metropolitan Police Department, and have recieved the annexed replies:

Whether, when application is made at a station for a married constable to take charge of an empty-furnished-house, any and what responsibility is undertaken by the department, and what are the general terms and conditions on which such applications are entertained?

Police sergeants and constables are permitted by the commissioner to take charge of unoccupied furnished houses on the recommendation of the superintendent of the division, provided they have undivided charge; that no servants remain; and that there are no valuables or plate therein. No resposibility whatever is undertaken by the police department. There are no other set terms or conditions. If the man's wife is employed to keep the house clean, it becomes a matter of arrangement between the parties. Sergeants and constables are allowed by the divisional superintendents to occupy unfurnished houses, or houses that have not been inhabited, provided they are reported, on inspection, as not likely to be prejudictial to the health of the officer."

Interesting.

best wishes

Phil

[Rubyretro]

I totally agree with you Phil, that the whole scenario is utterly incredible..

I had a horrible thought, though, when I went to read back about the Pearce Family, etc and look at maps..

WHAT IF the couple seen by Lawende and co, weren't Kate and JtR at all, but a 'couple' that never even entered the Square ?

What if JtR and Catherine Eddowes actually came into the Square from the wide passage from Mitre Street, passed derelict buildings, and stepped into the nearest shadows ?

They wouldn't ever have crossed the Square near Morris, nor made any noise,
and it would explain why they weren't heard.

Could we really expect the couple really seen by Lawende to come forward
and involve themselves in a Police enquiry, and especially if the man had a job
and didn't want to lose any money, nor draw attention to himself for his own reasons ?

Granted, Lawende identified Kate's body as the woman he had seen -but I've already quoted one of my own experiences of accusing an innocent man in the street of shoplifting because I was utterly convinced that he'd been in my shop. I think that you really don't remember someone physically unless you have a reason to do so, and your imagination can easily 'see' someone else in the scenario -and it not be true.

WHAT IF the most reliable Police witness was wrong all along ? It would explain why our descriptions of Jack are so varied !

As to the other people in the Square not waking up -I ask myself whether I would get involved after an event where I'd heard and seen nothing, if the aftermath was being 'sorted' under my window ? I think that I'd keep well out of it -as they did (the Policemen off duty might have feared having to 'work' and not be paid).

[Monty]

Hello Neil, Ruby, all

Simon kindly sent me this... and after much perusal... there doesn't seem to have been people around the area...not just Mitre Square...that night..

The Star, Oct 1st 1888. interview with P.C.Watkins

"And when did you pass through the square again?" asked the reporter.

"At about a quarter before two."

"Had you met any person on your rounds?"

"Not a soul."

"Nor heard any noise?"

"Not a sound, but the echo of my own footsteps."

(My emphasis.)

He didn't meet a soul. Not a soul. Nobody. Didn't see anyone, didn't hear anyone..on his rounds...that includes a main thoroughfare or two..does it not? And he didn't meet a soul on his rounds. Plural.

best wishes

Phil

Philip,

I tend to rely a little more on inquest testimony than news reports. At inquest the Coroner askes of Watkins if anything excited your attention during those hours? Watkins replied- No.

This if reference to anything usual, not anything at all.

I advise you to read all sources Phil, not those solely pertinant to your point.

Cheers
Monty

[Phil Carter]

Hello Neil,

I prefer Phil, not Philip, by the way...thanks :-)

I know that you look at inquest testimony more than newspapers. I understand that. I look at everything. John Kelly's inquest testimony and the testimony of the lodging house gentleman, Frederick William Wilkinson, are not to be taken lightly. John Kelly is lying. At the inquest.

As far as newspapers go, this is a direct interview with a policeman giving his own words. Watkins is quoted. It is Watkins talking. It makes no difference Neil, if anyone is lying in a newspaper or an inquest...they lie anyway. (see..John Kelly)

But ok Neil, lets look at that inquest shall we? All of the following is inquest testimony.

P.C. Watkins came on duty at 9.45p.m. His beat took 12-14 minutes, which he did continually.That means he did the same beat 4 times per hour. That means from 10p.m. to 1.30 a.m. he had patrolled 14 times around the same area. 14 times. He next entered the square at 1.44. He says further that he stayed with the body until P.C.Holland arrived.(echo) Sequeira followed him.(echo) (He testifies he was called on at 1.55 and was the first medical man to arrive). Inspector Collard arrived about 2.03a.m.(echo) (who testifies he arrived to find several police officers there, along with Sequira) According to Watkins, Morris used his whistle as he went up the street. (echo). Frederick Gordon Brown arrived at 2.18a.m.

George Morris went on duty at 7p.m. (So he was at work all through Watkins beat. All 14 times Watkins passed through Mitre Square) Morris testifies he was sweeping down the steps towards the door when Watkins knocked at the door which was slightly ajar, the door then being knocked or pushed. He was about 2 yards from the door. (6 feet., or two paces)
Morris then said... and this is crucial...(Watkins said Morris blew his whistle "as he went up the street" )that he blew his whistle immediately having "shewd my light on the body" and ran up Mitre Street into Aldgate. About then says Morris, two constables came up, I told them to go down Mitre Square, there was another terrible murder..I then followed the constables down and took charge of my own premises again.

That means that Watkins said Morris blew his whistle as he went up the street, Morris said he did it immediately. In Mitre Square.

Neil, it also means that according to Morris, Holland went with him to Mitre Square, NOT directly to Sequeira. P.C.Harvey told a "P.C. on the other side of the street" to "come with me" and "we went to Mitre Square" and P.C.Holland then went to Sequeira. He then says something I haven't noticed before..

"Private individuals were sent for other constables, arriving almost immediately".

What private individuals? What other constables?

George Clapp, the caretaker at No.5 Mitre Square testified..The back of the house looks onto Mitre Square...I was sleeping in a back room on the 2nd floor. During the night I heard no sound or any noise of any kind. Between 5 and 6 o'clock in the morning was the first I heard of the murder. The only other person in the house was Mrs Tew, a nurse in attendance on my wife. She sleeps on the 3rd floor.

So Mrs Tew was not was not the only person living there. Mrs George Clapp did too.

P.C.Richard Pearse testified I live at No.3 Mitre Square. I went to bed at 12.30a.m. on Sunday morning. I heard no noise or disturbance of any sort. At 20 past 2 I was called by a Constable and first heard of the murder. From my window I could see the spot where the deceased was found. I am the only tenant in the Square.

This is not true. He isn't. George Clapp, Mrs George Clapp and Mrs Tew the nurse are also tenants in the Square.

Dectective Daniel Halse testified.. At about 2 minutes to 2 I was at the corner of Hounsditch by Aldgate Church in Company with Detectives Outram and Marriot of the City Police. We all three went to Mitre Square. I gave intructions for the neighbourhood to be searched and every man examined.

Hang on. He must have got to Mitre Square about 2a.m. He gave instructions to whom? And Pearse was only woken up at 2.20 a.m. George Clapp wasn't even woken up, nor his wife, nor Mrs Tew. So much for all to be examined. They didn't even apparently bang on the door of and wake up a man a few yards from the murder! Good grief.. for all they knew, George Clapp could have murdered Eddowes.

As far as using newspapers to make my point, the canard that one can pick and choose which newspapers are and are not useful to make a point is used up, because The Times, of all newspapers, is unreliable. I maintain there is much to be gained from individual newspapers, especially a direct quote. If we cannot believe a direct quote Neil, then half the stuff by any policeman isn't to be believed in this case. Who draws the line on direct newspaper quotes?

As you well know, I have masses of respect for you Neil. Great stuff you have unearthed. But this scenario screams out...and nobody thinks there is anything at all untoward. Nobody questions it. Well I do.

Exactly how many people gathered, or ran into, or drove into, or wandered into Mitre Square from 1.15 a.m. until 2.20 a.m.?

The time line is thus:-

1.44 a.m. P.C. Watkins entered the Square. He immediately summoned Morris upon finding the body. Morris, running out(re echo) into Aldgate, found P.C.'s Harvey and Holland. Holland ran to Dr. Sequeira from Jewry Street.

By 2.20 am. Police surgeon F. Gordon Brown had arrived, followed by SuperIntendant McWilliam and Sergeant Foster. Sergeant Jones had arrived, as had P.C.Harvey.
Later Major Henry Smith arrived.


So, by 2.18a.m., we have had there or going in and out of the Square the following...
Morris and Watkins, Halse, Marriot and Outram, Harvey and Holland, Sequeira and Brown, McWilliam and Foster, Jones, the cab that transferred Brown (a horse and cart, and it's driver), various "private persons" and "other constables".. and a whistle outside the Pearse window blown in an echo'ed area, and he only wakes up at 2.20 a.m?

13 people, all making a racket and Pearse hears nothing. George Clapp, his wife and the nurse Mrs Tew, doesn't hear that and more...the hearse arriving, another cart with wheels, and the persons to push it. The person who drew the sketch of the body in situ, (Foster), was also in the Square.
Lord knows who else turned up between 2.20am and 5 a.m. And George Clapp sleeps sound as anything.

I appreciate your advice Neil, and I know it is always well meant. I wouldn't dream of offering advice to you. But respectfully, it should be noted that details reveal the wood, not just the trees. In inquest testimony or newspaper testimony. It makes no difference.

This whole scenario stinks to high heaven. The contradictions in testimony of serving policemen, an ex policeman and others is highly questionable. Inquest testimony Neil, before we look at newspapers to help advance an idea or that are pertinent to my point..

Acoustics, timing and light. Make of it what you will. I already have.

I thank the authors of the Sourcebook for the reproduction of the witness testimonies.

best wishes, as always,

Phil

[Dr. John Watson]

Philip,


I advise you to read all sources Phil, not those solely pertinant to your point.

Cheers
Monty

You might try following your own advise, Monty.

[Scott Nelson]

It was in the interests of the police to keep the square as quiet as they could for as long as possible. They would have their hands full with crowd control as daylight came and word of the murder spread.

[Monty]

You might try following your own advise, Monty.

Already working on that Doctor, with help from the horses mouth.

Monty

[Vingle]

I can give two personal experiences where sound was missed by me when I should have been alert to it.

At University, living in a very tight terrace in Birmingham, next door caught fire in the night at about 12.30/1am. My room was effectively where the living room would have been, at the front of the house next to the front door looking out onto the pavement and road.

The ambulance and fire engine arrived and set about their business. It took my house mates 5 minutes to rouse me and when i went outside next door's front door was wide open, there were things strewn around the pavement that had been on fire, three houses had all of their inhabitants outside in pajamas, the fire engine pumps were wherring and there was a general hubbub.

I was totally oblivious and had not been drinking.

On another occasion in Birmingham but in a different house, I was packing up my car very early on a Saturday morning to drive back to my mums house. I heard a screeching sound which I immediately apportioned to being foxes which ran about in our back garden. I would have thought nothing of it until I saw a guy run from between a gap between the houses,, jump in a car and drive off without putting his headlights on. I was sufficiently suspicious at this point(but only because he drove off before putting on his headlights) to write down his registration number.

It turned out that he had discovered that his girlfriend was a prostitute and had stabbed her. Fortunately she did not die. If I had not seen him jump in his car, I would have driven off and thought nothing else of it.

Therefore, I do think it is possible that the witnesses missed a sound which may well have been murder and did not associate it at the time. I'm not saying there isn't some oddities but I do think that it is possible that they were telling the truth.