population totals

[protohistorian]

From Post 6 on the previous page of thread, the Charles Warren quote:

"If we turn to the returns giving the number of houses of bad character, we find the same result. There has been a general diminution of such houses, the number in 1884-5 being 3,764; in 1885-6, 3,424; and in 1886-7, 3,146." (bold mine)

Is he referring to houses of prostitution, brothels?

Roy

I would assume so, but do not feel qualified to pronounce so. Respectfully Dave

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Dave,

Using a population of 175,000 you said you subtracted females. Did you also subtract children? What, after subtraction, was the number of adult males in the population?

Roy

[protohistorian]

Hi Dave,

Using a population of 175,000 you said you subtracted females. Did you also subtract children? What, after subtraction, was the number of adult males in the population?

Roy

The subtraction was not based on population, rather on the ratio of male/female sufferers of each disorder. I would have to dig, and truthfully do not expect to find, a data set that accurately portrays the numbers of afflicted children. The closest I could get to that data is the application of onset stats for each disorder. For example, schizophrenia's typical onset is late adolescents or early adulthood. There is however a statistically large amount of early onset, typically in males, and with a much darker prognosis. Respectfully Dave

[Septic Blue]

Bookmarked.

thanks for the numbers Septic, ...

'twas my pleasure, gentlemen!

We are often told that London's 'East End' was populated by ~900,000 persons, during the autumn of 1888.

Yet again; we are dealing with a population statistic …

Dave Yost gives the 1890 population for whitechapel andsurrounding Burroughs as 175,000.

… that may or may not be accurate, depending upon one's definition of the area under consideration.


Ancient Parochial Establishment of East London (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

In the centuries prior to the 1889 formation of the County of London, the combined color-shaded area, excepting that of the City of London (Purple), comprised an administrative sub-division of the Ancient County of Middlesex: The Tower Division, of the Ossulstone Hundred.


Tower Division, Ossulstone Hundred (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

The northern extent of the Parish of St. John at Hackney notwithstanding; Tower Division comprised, more-or-less, the community that was 'East London'.

Any semblance of communal bond that may have existed amongst the constituents of this administrative sub-division of the County of Middlesex was upheld and perhaps, to some extent, 'reinforced' by the Reform Act 1832, and the resultant formation of the Parliamentary Borough of Tower Hamlets, from the entirety of Tower Division.

1832-1867

The Parliamentary Borough of Tower Hamlets:
- The Parish of St. John at Hackney
- The Parish of St. Leonard Shoreditch
- The Parish of St. Matthew Bethnal Green
- The Liberty of Norton Folgate
- The Old Artillery Ground
- The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- The Parish of Holy Trinity ('Minories')
- The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (County of Middlesex)
- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town
- The Liberty of His/Her Majesty's Tower of London
--- The Liberty of the Tower
--- The Precinct of Old Tower Without
--- The Tower
- The Precinct of St. Katharine
- The Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (County of Middlesex)
- The Parish of St. George in the East
- The Parish of St. John of Wapping
- The Parish of St. Paul Shadwell
- The Hamlet of Ratcliff
- The Parish of St. Anne Limehouse
- The Parish of St. Mary Stratford Bow
- The Parish of Bromley St. Leonard
- The Parish of All Saints Poplar

However, any semblance of communal bond that may have existed specifically between the constituents of the Parish of St. John at Hackney and those of the rest of 'East London', was perhaps impeded by the Poor Law Amendment Act 1834, and the accordant 1837 establishment of Hackney Poor Law Union; …

1837-1900

Hackney Poor Law Union / Registration District:
- The Parish of St. John at Hackney
- The Parish of St. Mary Stoke Newington

… as well as the Metropolis Management Act 1855, and the resultant formation of the Hackney District of the Metropolitan Board of Works.

1855-1900

The Metropolitan Board of Works:

- Hackney District:
- The Parish of St. John at Hackney
- The Parish of St. Mary Stoke Newington

The Parish of St. John at Hackney, so it would seem; was a component of the 'East London' community, as regarding Parliamentary representation; but perhaps a part of the 'North London' community, as regarding civil administration and local government.

The Parish of St. Mary Stoke Newington, incidentally, was a component of Finsbury Division, Ossulstone Hundred; as well as a component of …

1832-1918

The Parliamentary Borough of Finsbury:
- The Combined Parish of St. Giles in the Fields & St. George Bloomsbury
- The Combined Parish of St. Andrew Holborn ('above the Bars')* & St. George the Martyr
- Gray's Inn
- Lincoln's Inn
- The Liberty of the Rolls
- Furnival's Inn (County of Middlesex, 1832-1889) (County of London, 1889-1918)
- Staple Inn
- The Liberty of Saffron Hill, Hatton Garden, Ely Rents and Ely Place
- The Combined Parish of St. James Clerkenwell & St. John Clerkenwell
- The Parish of St. Sepulchre ('without Newgate') (County of Middlesex, 1832-1889) (County of London, 1889-1918)
- Charter House
- The Liberty of Glasshouse Yard
- The Parish of St. Luke
- The Parish of St. Mary Islington (1832-1885)
- The Parish of St. Mary Stoke Newington (1832-1885)
* i.e. (County of Middlesex, 1832-1889) (County of London, 1889-1918)

Any communal bond that may have existed specifically between the constituents of the Parish of St. John at Hackney and those of the rest of 'East London', was again upheld by the Reform Act 1867, and the resultant establishment of the Parliamentary Borough of Hackney, from what had been, more-or-less, the northern half of the Parliamentary Borough of Tower Hamlets.

1867-1885

The Parliamentary Borough of Hackney:
- The Parish of St. John at Hackney
- The Parish of St. Leonard Shoreditch
- The Parish of St. Matthew Bethnal Green

The Parliamentary Borough of Tower Hamlets:
- The Liberty of Norton Folgate
- The Old Artillery Ground
- The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- The Parish of Holy Trinity ('Minories')
- The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (County of Middlesex)
- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town
- The Liberty of Her Majesty's Tower of London
--- The Liberty of the Tower
--- The Precinct of Old Tower Without
--- The Tower
- The Precinct of St. Katharine
- The Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (County of Middlesex)
- The Parish of St. George in the East
- The Parish of St. John of Wapping
- The Parish of St. Paul Shadwell
- The Hamlet of Ratcliff
- The Parish of St. Anne Limehouse
- The Parish of St. Mary Stratford Bow
- The Parish of Bromley St. Leonard
- The Parish of All Saints Poplar

This perceived sense of communal bond was undoubtedly challenged, however, by the Redistribution of Seats Act 1885, and the resultant separation of the Parishes of St. Leonard Shoreditch and St. Matthew Bethnal Green from the Parliamentary Borough of Hackney; along with the resultant addition of the Parish of St. Mary Stoke Newington to the Parliamentary Borough of Hackney.

1885-1918

The Parliamentary Borough of Hackney:
- The Parish of St. John at Hackney
- The Parish of St. Mary Stoke Newington

The Parliamentary Borough of Shoreditch:
- The Parish of St. Leonard Shoreditch

The Parliamentary Borough of Bethnal Green:
- The Parish of St. Matthew Bethnal Green

The 1885 addition of the Parish of St. Mary Stoke Newington to the Parliamentary Borough of Hackney, quite obviously, corresponded with its separation from the Parliamentary Borough of Finsbury. This separation was in conjunction with that of the Parish of St. Mary Islington, from the Parliamentary Borough of Finsbury; along with the accordant establishment of Islington as a Parliamentary Borough in itself.

1885-1918

The Parliamentary Borough of Islington:
- The Parish of St. Mary Islington

So, the perceived effect of the Redistribution of Seats Act 1885, in this instance, was to significantly reduce the northern extents of the 'West-Central London' (i.e. 'Finsbury') and 'East London' (i.e. 'Hackney' / 'Tower Hamlets') communities; thus (perhaps) fostering the development of a 'North London' community, consisting of the following:

- The Parliamentary Borough of Hampstead
- The Parliamentary Borough of St. Pancras (northern two-thirds, more-or-less)
- The Parliamentary Borough of Islington
- The Parliamentary Borough of Hackney

Might this have been the point, at which the concept of an 'East End' began to emerge?

Was Hackney a component of 1888's 'East End'?

Of particular note:

In his first of three surveys, "Labour and Life of the People: London" (two volumes + appendix), Williams & Norgate, 1889-1891; Charles Booth was very careful to provide statistical data in an "'East London' (Hackney included) / 'East London' (Hackney not included)" format.

So again; was Hackney a component of 1888's 'East End'?

What about some of its more southern ancient settlements, such as Kingsland and Dalston?


The 'East End' (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

'East London' Census Data: 1891

Shoreditch Registration District / Poor Law Parish:
- The Parish of St. Leonard Shoreditch
Total Population: 124,009

Bethnal Green Registration District / Poor Law Parish:
- The Parish of St. Matthew Bethnal Green
Total Population: 129,132

- Whitechapel Registration District / Poor Law Union:
- The Liberty of Norton Folgate
- The Old Artillery Ground
- The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- The Parish of Holy Trinity (Minories)
- The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (County of Middlesex, -1889) (County of London, 1889-1965)
- The Liberty of Her Majesty's Tower of London
--- The Liberty of the Tower
--- The Precinct of Old Tower Without
--- The Tower
- The Precinct of St. Katharine
- The Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (County of Middlesex, -1889) (County of London, 1889-1965)
Total Population: 74,462

Mile End Old Town Registration District / Poor Law Parish:
- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town
Total Population: 107,592

St. George in the East Registration District / Poor Law Parish:
- The Parish of St. George in the East
Total Population: 45,795

- Stepney Registration District / Poor Law Union:
- The Parish of St. John of Wapping
- The Parish of St. Paul Shadwell
- The Hamlet of Ratcliff
- The Parish of St. Anne Limehouse
Total Population: 57,376

- Poplar Registration District / Poor Law Union:
- The Parish of St. Mary Stratford Bow
- The Parish of Bromley St. Leonard
- The Parish of All Saints Poplar
Total Population: 166,748

'East End' Total Population: 705,114

Hackney Registration District / Poor Law Union:
- The Parish of St. John at Hackney
- The Parish of St. Mary Stoke Newington
Total Population*: 198,606

* The Parish of St. John at Hackney

'East London' Total Population**: 903,720

** 'East End' plus the Parish of St. John at Hackney

The Bottom Line:

When authors, television-documentary pundits, tour guides, et al make the assertion that 1888's 'East End' was populated by ~900,000 persons; some specificity and clarification is most definitely in order.

------------

Another nearby area was St Olaves, across the river. Besides boats, there were three means of crossing in 1888.
(1) London Bridge
(2) Tower Subway (a pedestrian tunnel)
(3) Thames Tunnel, then and now a railway.

Given the location and 1888 accessibility of the Tower Subway; were the Southwark Parishes of St. Olave, St. Thomas and St. John Horselydown just as 'local' as the Parish of St. Leonard Shoreditch and its ancient settlements of Hoxton, Haggerston, Shoreditch and Holywell?

Were these Southwark parishes perhaps more 'local' than Hoxton?

- If Jane Coram sees that, I'm sure she'll have me hanged! –

- Click the above quotation 'field', to view the complete post in JTR Forums.com. –

I don't share Roy's enthusiasm for the role that the Thames Tunnel might have played in this series of 'events'; but clearly, I am most enthusiastic about the possible roles that the Tower Subway, London Bridge, and even Southwark Bridge might have played accordingly.


Murder 'Locale' - Immediate Vicinity; General Vicinity; Broad Vicinity (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

I will expound at some point in the coming week; and in so doing, make some clarifications regarding …

St. Olave Registration District / Poor Law Union:
- The Parish of St. Olave, Borough of Southwark
- The Parish of St. Thomas, Borough of Southwark
- The Parish of St. John Horselydown, Borough of Southwark
- The Parish of St. Mary Magdalen Bermondsey
- The Parish of St. Mary Rotherhithe
Total Population (1891): 136,660


Murder 'Locale' in the Context of a Larger 'East End' (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

[perrymason]

Once again in awe, I say thanks for the data Septic. You indeed have a flair my friend.

Cheers amigo

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Dave,

I asked you a question in post 17. You replied in post 18 but did not answer my question. I apologize if I did not ask the question clearly. So here goes again:

Out of a total population of 175,000 what is the number of adult males?

Roy

[protohistorian]

Hi Dave,

I asked you a question in post 17. You replied in post 18 but did not answer my question. I apologize if I did not ask the question clearly. So here goes again:

Out of a total population of 175,000 what is the number of adult males?

Roy

I do not know. My calculations were based on prevalence rates, ratios of male to female sufferers, and what I thought to be the total population of the districts. I have not worked with the census data directly. Respectfully Dave p.s. someone like Septic Blue might have such totals, I do not. I am sorry for the miscommunication Respectfully Dave

[protohistorian]

did police......?

Was it a regular part of police duty to remove disordered but perhaps non criminal behavior from the streets? Dave