The People of the Abyss

[Mr.Hyde]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_People_of_the_Abyss

Hi Harry,
If we convince you,you do realise that you will then be known as "Harry the Roper",
All the Best.

[Nothing to see]

I believe a few of you are on the wrong track.I have never demanded that photographs be the only proof,in fact photos only show a split second of time so would hardly constitute several hours proof of sleep..Khanada asks what choice did those people have.Well I would think the choice to sleep on a floor in a natural position.I have never denied the living conditions of the poor of that time.What I have stressed,,and shown by proof,is that 'Children of the Abyss'contains a chapter that is undeniably false,namely the encounter with a Victoria Cross winner.If Jack London could be so wrong on that,what else could he be wrong about.I have urged caution in accepting anything written of that period to be the literal truth.Authors,as well as being in error,are as liable to lie as anyone else.The most,and perhaps the only form of information on doss houses from that period,is in documented form.It would now be almost impossible to verify some of the truth of what is written.We are then left with only two choices.To believe or to disbelieve.I have shown a disbelief of only one claim,that of sleeping for hours suspended over a rope,but from the amount of posts opposing me it is if I am claiming everything written of that period is false.Read what I write.Now let me take George Orwell as a witness.He did not even arrive in England untill 1927,the same year I was born.Anything to do with the period in question,would be from a secondry source,not from his own experience.What is that source?We do not know because he didn't say.He is not a good reference,and Charles Dickens was of a period many years in the past.Now what's left?There are of course the newspapers and magazines..As most of them were full of the social conditions existing,one might expext any unnatural activity to be widely and regularly reported.Was sleeping on ropes,a most unnatural act,so reported.It is good that an experiment is to be made,and no offence to the person involved,but I would expect independent witness to be present.

Hey, good for you if you can provide proof that they didn't sleep lying against ropes. But have you had a look at the number of persons 'supposedly' sleeping in these doss houses against the number of people who actually did.

Men like McCarthy ( not him in particular but as an example) would take whatever matresses, whatever 'evidence' could be used against them, off to somewhere else during the day when the doss house 'inspection' was made.

Because you don't agree with Jack London. Well, OK. But he was there a long time before we were born.

Myself, I'll read what he writes and accept it as reasonably true, until someone proves it's definitely false.

[harry]

I believe a few of you are on the wrong track.I have never demanded that photographs be the only proof,in fact photos only show a split second of time so would hardly constitute several hours proof of sleep..Khanada asks what choice did those people have.Well I would think the choice to sleep on a floor in a natural position.I have never denied the living conditions of the poor of that time.What I have stressed,,and shown by proof,is that 'Children of the Abyss'contains a chapter that is undeniably false,namely the encounter with a Victoria Cross winner.If Jack London could be so wrong on that,what else could he be wrong about.I have urged caution in accepting anything written of that period to be the literal truth.Authors,as well as being in error,are as liable to lie as anyone else.The most,and perhaps the only form of information on doss houses from that period,is in documented form.It would now be almost impossible to verify some of the truth of what is written.We are then left with only two choices.To believe or to disbelieve.I have shown a disbelief of only one claim,that of sleeping for hours suspended over a rope,but from the amount of posts opposing me it is if I am claiming everything written of that period is false.Read what I write.Now let me take George Orwell as a witness.He did not even arrive in England untill 1927,the same year I was born.Anything to do with the period in question,would be from a secondry source,not from his own experience.What is that source?We do not know because he didn't say.He is not a good reference,and Charles Dickens was of a period many years in the past.Now what's left?There are of course the newspapers and magazines..As most of them were full of the social conditions existing,one might expext any unnatural activity to be widely and regularly reported.Was sleeping on ropes,a most unnatural act,so reported.It is good that an experiment is to be made,and no offence to the person involved,but I would expect independent witness to be present.

[Mr.Hyde]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fourpence_coffin.JPG

That is what you got for an extra tuppence.
Fourpence was the tax on a newspaper in 1853.
One had to be desperate to pay that extra penny for the rope.Free download of "The People of the Abyss".

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/1688

[Mr.Hyde]

Hi Harry,
Some of the interior photos taken of this era were courtesy of the invention of magnesium flashpowder circa 1890.Acounts for the startled,"candid" look of some people.
Who would be game/stupid enough to attempt photographing destitute people who have just paid that extra penny for use of the rope in an attempt to sleep?

[Khanada]

What I object to,is that old,frail,and sometimes ill persons,men and women,did,night after night,for hours at a time,sleep in that position.That is what has been claimed.

Let me ask you one simple question about this one...

What choice did those people have?

It's very funny how a lack of choices dictates what you will and won't, what you "can" and "can't", do.

A little about proof."I walked along the beach this morning".That is a claim,it lacks proof.How does one prove it.How do I myself prove it.How would one start to prove it?Anyone care to try?It is pertinent to what I have claimed in posts.

We all know that you want photographs that don't exist. Many people have pointed out to you that there are a lot of things that we know have happened in history, but for which there are no photographs.

I know very well that another human being killed and mutilated Mary Jane Kelly -- I know this as sure as I know my own name, and yet there is no photograph of her murderer hanging over her. I suppose one could argue that we don't know that she was murdered, that for all we know she was just an incredibly determined and motivated suicide, because there is no photograph of her murderer in the act of murder -- but I only know one person who would fall for something that illogical. (And that's why I avoid that person at family functions.)

There are too many stories of people sleeping over a rope, and from too many sources. Now, there has to be a reason for that, doesn't there?

Possibility Number One -- it really happened, whether there are photos or not, and no matter how incredible it may sound.

Possibility Number Two -- it didn't happen, just like there are no NINA signs and never were, and just like Victorians didn't cover up all the legs on the furniture lest some male get turned on by the piano's comely limbs.

I freely confess that I'm largely leaning toward Possibility Number One, because a lack of photos does not prove that something did not happen. And who on earth would have photographed such a thing in those days? There are all kinds of mundane things that people just plain didn't photograph, because they didn't think it was important. Destitute people sleeping over a rope in an East End doss house is certainly subject matter that I can easily believe no photographer would have thought was a big deal to document. (It relates directly to the reason some very mundane things become valuable antiques -- no one thought they were important, so they threw them all out, or used them until they broke, and thought nothing of it. Consequently, they're now rare and expensive.)

Instead of demanding that we all prove to your satisfaction that people did indeed sleep over a rope, perhaps you should be trying to prove to us that it never happened. With respect, nothing you've posted proves your own position -- you've offered your opinion, and your disbelief. Nothing else.

I will have a whole week off next week and I plan to experiment with this. I will have my wife take photos and write a short summary of what I find out.

That is dedication... Make sure you take video with sound for YouTube. Something tells me that part of the audience will want to hear you snoring.

[John Bennett]

I will have my wife take photos and write a short summary of what I find out.

Now, THAT'S dedication for you!

Good luck.

[smezenen]

Harry,
The sources I gave cover at least 100 years from 1831 to 1933. The picture of the Twopenny sit downs was taken in 1900 so I think we are in the right time frame. Robert posted two articles on page 2 of this thread; in the longer article, an interviewee describes sleeping over the ropes. He states “It’s a little tough at first, but you try it for a few weeks, and its regular well snoozin’. I’ve got calluses on my back and under my arms, and that’ ere ropes fine as live feathers now. Still no photos of the actual act but it is a FIRST HAND account of someone doing it for an extended period of time. I will have a whole week off next week and I plan to experiment with this. I will have my wife take photos and write a short summary of what I find out.

[harry]

Jason,
Thank you but have no sympathy,and yes,this is another myth.
Phillip,
I'm not gone yet.I'm awaiting your proof.You were proven a liar though.You used the word idiot.
Smesenem,
Thanks for your sources,I'll certainly look them up,but doubt they will cover the period under discussion.

Thanks to the other contributers,but again it is claims on what other people have said or written,it does not prove the claims.I have no problem with posters who say persons can bend over and support themselves on ropes,I believe that,I have done it myself.Not for long though,it is too uncomfortable and painful after a while,and can even,if carried out too long,cause damage to internal organs(medical opinion).What I object to,is that old,frail,and sometimes ill persons,men and women,did,night after night,for hours at a time,sleep in that position.That is what has been claimed.
A little about proof."I walked along the beach this morning".That is a claim,it lacks proof.How does one prove it.How do I myself prove it.How would one start to prove it?Anyone care to try?It is pertinent to what I have claimed in posts.

[Mr.Hyde]

Quite possibly where the term "hangover" came from.
Salvos main market segment was-drunks,drug takers and prostitutes.
A "tuppeny hangover"-I wish!

[Khanada]

Peter Hinchcliffe - smelly old Exeter

OK... Just for a lark, I thought I'd try to search the internet for photos. For the record, I have no trouble believing that people slept (or at least deeply catnapped) over ropes, I love old photos, and I dislike Jack London only a little less than Hemingway (who I can't stand). That said, People of the Abyss is a must-read.

So, anyway... Within minutes, I found this page, written by a retired police officer, mentioning the ropes and doss houses.

"At the top of the building, in the attic, was the “rope”, allegedly this is where those men without the few pence fee to sleep on a bed could drape themselves over the rope for a nights rest. Some would argue that the expression “on the ropes” originated from this source, i.e. they had so little money that they could not afford the cheapest bed, they were obliged to sleep on the rope."

Granted that the word "allegedly" is used, but, still...

http://www.exetermemories.co.uk/EM/story_44.html

[Robert]

Why all this fuss about going to sleep on ropes? British boxers have been doing it for years.

[Bulldog]

If anyone has come in late and doesn’t realize what this thread is all about, it was started to let people know that The People of the Abyss, Jack London’s disturbing account of the lives of the East London poor, can now be read on-line. Each chapter includes photos from the original edition. If you haven’t read it yet, you should. It’s compelling reading.

The URL was noted back in Post #1.

Bulldog

[Limehouse]

I think the reality of the 'sleeping rope' is well documented from a variety of sources and I have a feeling that even if Harry was presented with photographic proof he would claim that the photograph could have been faked.

To return to the original topic of the thread, Jack London's book is shocking in its portrayal of the life of the poor. They seem to have been punished every which way. The most wicked thing I think was the separation of husbands, wives and children - a practice that continued well into the second half of the 20th century. Anyone who has seen Cathy Come Home will remember the children being wrenched from their parents.

[jason_c]

I dont know who is right or wrong here but i do have sympathy with Harry on one point. That many myths do grow, resulting in popular "fact".

Two examples are.

1. Victorians covering legs of furniture to hide any sexual thoughts

2. No Irish need apply signs in the USA. The last i read on the matter little or no documentary proof of these have ever turned up.