soliciting with intent.....

[Mary_Jane_Kelly]

having recently watched yet another documentary about JTR something struck me as a bit strange...

there was a general agreement by both the prostitutes and the police that if they plied their trade around a particular church in the spitalfeilds district, they would not be arrested. this church was from then on reffered to as the prostitutes church or prostitutes island. another thing that i found a little odd was that the prostitutes would also be left alone by the police if they kept moving while plying their trade.

any thoughts on this?

---MJK---

[kensei]

You refer to St. Botolph's Church which is just a stone's throw from Mitre Square. When I took Philip Hutchinson's Ripper tour this past September he explained that this supposed arrangement between the prostitutes and the police is only a rumor and is possibly just an urban legend. It is however thought to be the place where Catherine Eddowes first met the Ripper.

[George Hutchinson]

It's certainly true that the prostitutes would hang around St Botolph's but that was a matter of convenience because it lies at the intersection of Leadenhall Street, Fenchurch Street, Aldgate High Street, Jewry Street, Mansell Street, Houndsditch and Duke's Place - loads of major thoroughfares converging at a point where they would get a lot of passing trade. However, the police turning a blind eye is unlikely and the walking around the church has no evidence.

PHILIP

[caz]

It's certainly true that the prostitutes would hang around St Botolph's but that was a matter of convenience because it lies at the intersection of Leadenhall Street, Fenchurch Street, Aldgate High Street, Jewry Street, Mansell Street, Houndsditch and Duke's Place - loads of major thoroughfares converging at a point where they would get a lot of passing trade. However, the police turning a blind eye is unlikely and the walking around the church has no evidence.

PHILIP

Hi Philip,

Not according to the tiny clutch of posters that has sprung up in recent times, who believe this to be a total myth, and an East End prostitute would have the devil's own job persuading any such passing trade off a major city thoroughfare and into the nearby mean streets for an ultra cheap quickie.

Just didn't happen, apparently.

Love,

Caz
X

[Jane Coram]

Hi All,

Whilst circling around the church itself might be apocryphal, that area generally was teeming with prostitutes up until about 2am, as there are solid reports of the coffee stall holders staying open to cater for the ladies and presumably prospective customers and making most of their money from them, all along the part of Aldgate High Street.

They closed up at 2am because by then almost all of the ladies had gone. The stall holders would then come back a few hours later, to cater for the market stall holders and customers in nearby streets on certain mornings of the week.

If Catherine was plying her trade that night, she would have been one of the last ones on the street, possibly adding support to the idea that Jack went for the weaker and more vulnerable sector of the profession.

I can find the source if anyone wants it, but I'm a bit busy now. It's under the section 'Coffee shops and stalls' on Victorian London.org.

Hugs

Jane

xxxxx

[Monty]

Janie,

Its an excellent site and one I use often.

Re Prostitutes http://www.victorianlondon.org/menu-crime.htm#

Re Coffee Stalls/Street food http://www.victorianlondon.org/menu-food.htm#

Monty

[Sam Flynn]

Not according to the tiny clutch of posters that has sprung up in recent times, who believe this to be a total myth, and an East End prostitute would have the devil's own job persuading any such passing trade off a major city thoroughfare and into the nearby mean streets for an ultra cheap quickie.

Just didn't happen, apparently.

... so, what "trade" exactly would happen to be passing such places at between 1:40 and 5:25 in the morning, Caz? Was there late night shopping for Yom Kippur, to which outsiders flocked in their droves? Can't see it, somehow

[perrymason]

... so, what "trade" exactly would happen to be passing such places at between 1:40 and 5:25 in the morning, Caz? Was there late night shopping for Yom Kippur, to which outsiders flocked in their droves? Can't see it, somehow

Hi Sam,

Not directed at me, but you would have Butchers, Slaughterhouse men, people going to set up for Market, goods leaving the docks, ...I would think the main thoroughfares probably saw some kind of traffic all night long...including foot traffic.

Best regards SF

[Sam Flynn]

Not directed at me, but you would have Butchers, Slaughterhouse men, people going to set up for Market

Do we know that, Mike? At 1:40, 3:30 for example? Ripperology is sufficiently well-blessed with "would-haves", methinks

, goods leaving the docks

Mayhap... although there again, I'm not so sure that they worked 24/7 down there. Not that it matters, because the docks were some distance away, and well out of the "killing-zone". Rather, they were close to potential "killing-zones" of their own - for Poplar, Limehouse and Ratcliff weren't exactly bereft of prostitutes.

I would think the main thoroughfares probably saw some kind of traffic all night long...including foot traffic.

Indeed - however, the salient point is how many of those feet would have been from outside the district? In other words, how many people had any business being there at those various times of the night?

[perrymason]

I get your point Sam, but I think we have evidence that Slaughterhouse men were working, Diemshutz is apparently just returning after a brief stop from the market at 1:00am, Butchers I understand had to have their wares cut and portioned by 6am,...in these cases youve got vigilantees and police patrols, .....maybe shift work men still out carousing after midnight, people in port for the weekend, military men on leave, .......lets put it this way,......the evidence that men were out very late at night is borne out by the fact that the Unfortunates in question, or some of them, were supposedly still working when they meet their killer after midnight.

I dont think they serviced each other. ...and even if they did, they were probably both broke.

Best regards Sam

[Sam Flynn]

the evidence that men were out very late at night is borne out by the fact that the Unfortunates in question, or some of them, were supposedly still working when they meet their killer after midnight.

But they weren't "working" in the true sense of the word, Mike. They were, in the main, the dregs that had been turfed out of their lodging-houses (or police cells) in the small hours. If this weren't the case, I'm pretty certain that Jack would have struck lucky at earlier hours of the night than he did with Nichols, Chapman and Kelly. Or Tabram, Nichols and Chapman - for those of that school of thought. He may well also have claimed victims other than Eddowes and Stride - otherwise, they were the unluckiest of the "several" (not?) unfortunates on "duty" at the time.

[The Good Michael]

Bakers would be working. Thieves would be working. Nightmen would be working.

Mike

[Sam Flynn]

Bakers would be working. Thieves would be working. Nightmen would be working.

I'm not disputing any of that, Mike - although the conditions under which they worked might have prevented many of them from sauntering out for a shag - but they'd be primarily local artisans, almost by definition, and small in number. The idea that (e.g.) St Botolph's or Leman Street would be a-swarm with sex tourists after 1:30 in the morning is almost certainly misplaced. That you'd find the occasional "contingent" prostitute (by which I mean women with money and/or accommodation problems) serving casual, local trade, is probable - but that's not the mental picture beloved of Hollywood (and some Ripperologists) by a country mile.

[Jon Guy]

In other words, how many people had any business being there at those various times of the night?

Hi Sam

There was certainly a potential custombase at that time of night, in that part of town, and they were the soldiers that we know drank on the High St and were still hanging around that area at 02.00 am.

[Sam Flynn]

There was certainly a potential custombase at that time of night, in that part of town, and they were the soldiers that we know drank on the High St and were still hanging around that area at 02.00 am.

Outside the Tabram case, I'm not sure that I know about that, Jon. In that specific instance, don't forget, they'd picked up with their "prozzies" earlier in the evening, and stayed with them on a pub-crawl. It's not as if they'd wandered into town on the off-chance in the small hours.